Infrastructure Raid Targets.

Hutch and I are having this little discussion about whether or not there was a discussion in Manticore about the possibility of an attack on the Sol System provides a rallying point for the League. I think there was but can't find the textev. We both agree that on the League side, Kolokoltzov was well aware of the possibility.

What is a bit unclear is if that included an attack on the Sol system as a whole, or if it would only be an attack on old Earth. Hutch and I are both inclined to think it would only be the latter.

In the course of my wandering around, I happened across the original statement of the Harrington doctrine by the Duchess herself in SftS. It is a carrot and stick approach, but there is a lot more emphasis on the stick than some of you seem to be allowing for. Re-reading is suggested.

Don

Yes, Honor and the queen discussed it IIRC.

I seem to recall that an attack on "Old Earth" has been discussed and ruled out during a cabinet meeting on Manticore (not certain which book its in) as too likely to create a rallying point for League public opinion at least during the early part of the war against the League.

I'm going to assume this means that any attack against the Sol system is also off the table.

However, I can see, after an increasingly damaging series of infrastructure raids around the entire League, that Sol might go onto the target list at around a year and a half to two years into the war, to make it entirely clear that the SLN cannot oppose the Alliance in any meaningful way, even near its strongest fleet bases, much less somehow achieve victory

nrellis wrote:I seem to recall that an attack on "Old Earth" has been discussed and ruled out during a cabinet meeting on Manticore (not certain which book its in) as too likely to create a rallying point for League public opinion at least during the early part of the war against the League.

I'm going to assume this means that any attack against the Sol system is also off the table.

However, I can see, after an increasingly damaging series of infrastructure raids around the entire League, that Sol might go onto the target list at around a year and a half to two years into the war, to make it entirely clear that the SLN cannot oppose the Alliance in any meaningful way, even near its strongest fleet bases, much less somehow achieve victory

That's what I'm remembering too... I thought it happened in a cabinet meeting too, or maybe a kitchen cabinet meeting involving iirc Admiral Caparelli. But the closest I have been able to get so far is that all the casualties the SLN would suffer in an attack on Manticore could possibly provide a emotional rallying point for the League.

Don

Actually, that's not what the text tells us. The text says that Yildun has lots of resource but no habitable planets. It says that it has a wormhole junction with three termini, the second-oldest known wormhole junction. The text says that Yildun is at the boundary of the Core and the Shell regions of the Solarian League. It says that Technodyne of Yildun has a headquarters (possibly the primary headquarters) in Yildun. But the text does not say that Technodyne owns the system--it doesn't even tell us that Technodyne is the only transtellar corporation with a headquarters there. The text could be interpreted as implying that Yildun is part of the Solarian League. It could, in fact, be a formal member of the League, even lacking a habitable planet.

Ah, all that pesky missing detail

Somebody is going to own Yilden. Look at all the dancing around with Mannerheim and the Felix. I don't think we actualy know who ownes or has the rights Grendelsbane System - another one without a habitable planet though Manticore has/had a base and the yards there.

If no Star Nation or system already had a valid claim on Yilden before Technodyne set up it's industry- including shipyards- there, then you might be able to look at Technodyne as something like the East India Company in the Age of Sail. They -or somebody- lay claim to the system by right of discovery (with no local inhabitants to clutter up the title) and set up operation. They developed it. They can protect it, then and now. Of course now they have at least all that help from the SLN since they are a major arms supplyer to SLN and SL at large.

East India Company was a law unto itself with it's own private navy. Corporate State. It would be really interesting to find out how this is working in the Honorers for the Transtellars.

Brigade XO wrote:

Actually, that's not what the text tells us. The text says that Yildun has lots of resource but no habitable planets. It says that it has a wormhole junction with three termini, the second-oldest known wormhole junction. The text says that Yildun is at the boundary of the Core and the Shell regions of the Solarian League. It says that Technodyne of Yildun has a headquarters (possibly the primary headquarters) in Yildun. But the text does not say that Technodyne owns the system--it doesn't even tell us that Technodyne is the only transtellar corporation with a headquarters there. The text could be interpreted as implying that Yildun is part of the Solarian League. It could, in fact, be a formal member of the League, even lacking a habitable planet.

Ah, all that pesky missing detail

Somebody is going to own Yilden. Look at all the dancing around with Mannerheim and the Felix. I don't think we actualy know who ownes or has the rights Grendelsbane System - another one without a habitable planet though Manticore has/had a base and the yards there.

If no Star Nation or system already had a valid claim on Yilden before Technodyne set up it's industry- including shipyards- there, then you might be able to look at Technodyne as something like the East India Company in the Age of Sail. They -or somebody- lay claim to the system by right of discovery (with no local inhabitants to clutter up the title) and set up operation. They developed it. They can protect it, then and now. Of course now they have at least all that help from the SLN since they are a major arms supplyer to SLN and SL at large.

East India Company was a law unto itself with it's own private navy. Corporate State. It would be really interesting to find out how this is working in the Honorers for the Transtellars.

Actually there is some textev for this interpretation. The short story A Call to Arms in the 6th anthology (and the epilogue to the first book in the series that it spawned) shows the Axelrod corporation attempting to seize the Manticore WH before it is recognized, to the great benefit of the corporation itself.

Does it even benefit the GA to go after the mothballed Battle Fleet SDs? At some point Hamish iirc made a comment of how there was still a large portion of the reserve equipped with auto-cannon vs PDLC. Even when updated to "modern" standards they aren't survivable in the current combat environment.... at least not against anyone with MDMs. They're big, soak up a ton of manpower with their designs, and they don't pose much of a threat to any of the GA's modern fleets. If they went out and destroyed them all at drydock then it would just force the SL to build new and better ships that are more survivable and which likely will have more automation (though not necessarily). While there's been textev that the SL knows it needs new designs (I'm remembering a conversation between Kingsford and the Mandarins about his plans for FF raiding forces) there has got to be some pressure somewhere of not letting the reserve go to waste. As long as it's there then there's potential for it to drain away significant resources in manpower and refitting which could be better put towards modernizing the SLN.

Granted there's still a lot of trouble even obsolete designs can pose against opponents who don't have modern hardware. Just see Terkhov and the Battle of Hyacinth.

icspots wrote:Does it even benefit the GA to go after the mothballed Battle Fleet SDs? At some point Hamish iirc made a comment of how there was still a large portion of the reserve equipped with auto-cannon vs PDLC. Even when updated to "modern" standards they aren't survivable in the current combat environment.... at least not against anyone with MDMs. They're big, soak up a ton of manpower with their designs, and they don't pose much of a threat to any of the GA's modern fleets. If they went out and destroyed them all at drydock then it would just force the SL to build new and better ships that are more survivable and which likely will have more automation (though not necessarily). While there's been textev that the SL knows it needs new designs (I'm remembering a conversation between Kingsford and the Mandarins about his plans for FF raiding forces) there has got to be some pressure somewhere of not letting the reserve go to waste. As long as it's there then there's potential for it to drain away significant resources in manpower and refitting which could be better put towards modernizing the SLN.

Granted there's still a lot of trouble even obsolete designs can pose against opponents who don't have modern hardware. Just see Terkhov and the Battle of Hyacinth.

Well there is obsolete and then there is OBSOLETE. The Peep ships at Hyacinth were far more up to date than anything in the Sollie closet, and Terekov had older model ships - the newer ones were with Eighth fleet, tearing up the Peep systems in the Buttercup offense.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Well there is obsolete and then there is OBSOLETE. The Peep ships at Hyacinth were far more up to date than anything in the Sollie closet, and Terekov had older model ships - the newer ones were with Eighth fleet, tearing up the Peep systems in the Buttercup offense.

If all you have are rifles, my totally obsolete T-34 platoon and a few hundred bandits with rusty AKs is perfectly capable of crushing like a bug your battalion of highly trained troops.

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Well there is obsolete and then there is OBSOLETE. The Peep ships at Hyacinth were far more up to date than anything in the Sollie closet, and Terekov had older model ships - the newer ones were with Eighth fleet, tearing up the Peep systems in the Buttercup offense.

If all you have are rifles, my totally obsolete T-34 platoon and a few hundred bandits with rusty AKs is perfectly capable of crushing like a bug your battalion of highly trained troops.

True enough. But in this case, the T-34 and rusty AKs are equivalent to what the Peeps had - which I agreed could cause problems. What the Sollies have is armored cavalry equipped with cross bows, against modern rifles, and in that case they are toast.