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The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by SWM   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:38 am

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Relax wrote:
SWM wrote:I believe that Zakharra meant that the RHN cannot yet make any Manticoran missiles for Manticoran ships.


I know exactly what he was thinking, or not thinking as the case may be. Why I was rolling on the floor laughing. Seems you can't figure out the obvious either.

For both of you:

What is the title of the damned thread? Grand ALLIANCE Grand Attack. Ai carumba. It is NOT, Grand RMN grand attack

Shall I point out the obvious? That I thought should have been self evident due to the THREAD TOPIC NAME?

RHN missiles in pods are more than enough to completely obliterate all SLN SD's and BC's in 6 months. RMN missiles/ships need not even bother to be used. No manufacturing of any missiles is needed to obliterate the ISLN.

If that was supposed to be your point, you should have phrased it differently. The way you said it, it sounded like you were making fun of Zakharra. Statements like "I am afraid to rap you upside the head, it might implode." do not sound friendly.
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:08 am

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SWM wrote:Statements like "I am afraid to rap you upside the head, it might implode." do not sound friendly.

Hell, they don't even sound civil.
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by roseandheather   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:58 am

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MuonNeutrino wrote:
SWM wrote:Statements like "I am afraid to rap you upside the head, it might implode." do not sound friendly.

Hell, they don't even sound civil.

Given the poster we're talking about here, that doesn't come as a shock.
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:35 am

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A big question is: Does the SL have the AUTHORITY UNDER LAW- in the current situation- to tell Member Systems that they can not trade or othewise engage in commerce with SEM, RH or Grayson?

We saw the conversation with the commander of the Beowulf SDF and the SLN task force commander wanting to use the Beowulf terminus to support Fillerta. Essentialy since there was no war the SLN could NOT demand access to the wormhole. Period.

What the current practice has been (what it has evolved to though activity over time) for SLN ships being able to enter a Member System and do things other than "show the flag" or request (and pay for) serivces and supplies may be different from what is actually written in the rules and regulations and laws

We presently see the situation in the US (and other places) that various agencies and departments of the government make "rulings" and "regulations" which have the force of laws even if they are not, in-fact, laws. You can significantly damage or destroy businesses or industries by imposing regulations. You can also twist regulations and their interpretation to justify a wide range of actions including taking over locations when people/companies. And you can make up regulations on the fly to deal with things you want to prevent or destroy. Think Delores Umbridge in the Harry Potter series. Nasty piece of work.
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:44 am

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Brigade XO wrote:A big question is: Does the SL have the AUTHORITY UNDER LAW- in the current situation- to tell Member Systems that they can not trade or othewise engage in commerce with SEM, RH or Grayson?

We saw the conversation with the commander of the Beowulf SDF and the SLN task force commander wanting to use the Beowulf terminus to support Fillerta. Essentialy since there was no war the SLN could NOT demand access to the wormhole. Period.

What the current practice has been (what it has evolved to though activity over time) for SLN ships being able to enter a Member System and do things other than "show the flag" or request (and pay for) serivces and supplies may be different from what is actually written in the rules and regulations and laws

We presently see the situation in the US (and other places) that various agencies and departments of the government make "rulings" and "regulations" which have the force of laws even if they are not, in-fact, laws. You can significantly damage or destroy businesses or industries by imposing regulations. You can also twist regulations and their interpretation to justify a wide range of actions including taking over locations when people/companies. And you can make up regulations on the fly to deal with things you want to prevent or destroy. Think Delores Umbridge in the Harry Potter series. Nasty piece of work.

Reminds be of a rather cynical cartoon I saw about 30 years ago - Man sitting in from of a lawyer's desk, and the lawyer says "You have a really good case here. How much justice can you afford?"
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Hutch   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:14 pm

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Relax wrote:Now, I will work on a reply for ya Hutch though it is 9pm already. Yikes. Might be another day or two.


I await with considerable anticipation (and perhaps a bit of trepidation.....) :shock: 8-) :lol:
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Draken   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:02 pm

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Going back to strategy. Easiest one is using BC, CLAC, CA, DD, CL as raiding forces to destroy every enemy shipyard which we can find. Beowulf should have a lot of information on that. If Sollies will lose a lot of shipyards they will not have enough industrial capacity to build new ships, so they economy will be falling apart. After destroying that BC(P) should go after mining ships, smelters and everything which is part of space economy. They should be able to rebuild it pretty quickly but every month of delay is good and we have commanders which commanded that kind of battles before (Diamato, Honor, Tourville, Theisman, Truman, Henke, Oversteeger, Miklós) only problem will be with scouting and making list of which should be attacked. And another good idea would be to have few freighters with military grade impellers so they can carry anything valuable. Captured prototypes, any useful materials and other stuff.
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by kzt   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:09 pm

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There are >1500 members of the SL.

Most of which are months of hyperspace travel from Manticore, and more months from Haven.

How long do you think this will take, and what will the reception be on the ones at the end of your list?

You want a war to the knife, that is an excellent way to get the 3 billion people of manticore against to 30 trillion or so people in the the SL in a fight to the death.
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Draken   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:28 pm

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kzt wrote:There are >1500 members of the SL.

Most of which are months of hyperspace travel from Manticore, and more months from Haven.

How long do you think this will take, and what will the reception be on the ones at the end of your list?

You want a war to the knife, that is an excellent way to get the 3 billion people of manticore against to 30 trillion or so people in the the SL in a fight to the death.

First: Why from Haven or Manticore, we have Junction and Beowulf is right in the Core, so we have no need to search for shipyards in Verge or Shell. All of them should be in Core, easiest to defend and in the middle, so delivering them to the front isn't pain in the ass.
Second: How long? If we will have +/- 300-400 SD(P) and 200-300 BC and CLAC, it shouldn't take long. Manticore in the Second war was able to hit 3-4 targets at the same time, here we should be able to hit maybe 20 or even more.
Third: What is my target? I want to accomplish same effect as American attacks on German industry in 1941-1945, one major criteria of choosing targets was importance of them and another one was, how much it will anger Hitler and he will order Luftwaffe to protect that region and we could strike in other place. Also I want to destroy morale of League citizens, richer worlds or more endangered quickly will change sides, so they don't be a target. It's attrition type warfare but we must cripple as fast as possible League shipyards and other branches of industry. If they don't have shipyards, they don't have ships and if they don't have ships, they must play as we want. Kingsford said that all of their reserve is junk, but if we destroy it they won't get material from it.
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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Zakharra   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:28 pm

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Relax wrote:
Zakharra wrote: I must point out to Relax that the MMM he is touting.. isn't in SL space any more. ALL of them were recalled; from the Core, from the Inner and Outer Protectorates, and from the Verge. That was the point of Lacoon 1. The complete removal of MMM ships from all of SL space, which includes a considerable part of the Verge (otherwise they wouldn't have OFS and Frontier Fleet in the area) Unless that MMM is on RMN business there are -no- Manty merchant vessels in SL space. Period. and a good number of the crews on those MMM ships are currently on active duty on RMN warships.


1) The Verge is NOT the protectorates. Look at DW's maps. SL-Core-Shell-Protectorates then the Verge. Haven/Manticore/Andies/TQ etc are all in the Verge.

2) The ships were recalled to "friendly" space, NOT their crews to active duty. Where on earth did you ever get that idea from? Read ART again. First couple of chapters. Notice whats his face was ruminating that he was "likely" going to recalled to active duty and toting back something quite a bit less profitable and a lot more explosive.

3) Look at a timeline. Lacoon I, was not a recall. It was a war warning. Or you could recall there was this "little problem child" called Oyster Bay that rolled through Mancticoran space when Lacoon II was kicking off and MMM shipping was simultaneously being pulled from SL space. OB eliminated any "new" shipping these recalled crews could have possibly gone to in either case, even if you are correct about being recalled to active duty.

Bottom line: Thousands of stationary freighters with crews and no income.




The Verge is also thick with OFS and FF ships. It is, for all intents and purposed, SL space, more or less. Otherwise what the hell is OFS for then? The frontier is the Verge. The Inner and Outer Protectorates are SL space as is the Core. The Verge is on the verge (in terms of decades if not centuries) of being annexed by the SL, hence the reason for the Office of Frontier Security and the Frontier Fleet. The Verge also had several wormhole junctions. Junctions the SEM seized control temporarily in Lacoon 1 and somewhat permanently in Lacoon 2.

Manticore and Haven are outside of the listed Verge space. The Talbot cluster is in Verge space, but the two nations you named? Outside of Verge space.

Lacoon 1 was a recall. It flat out stated that the RMN was recalling ALL MMM ships from League space. It was also a warning to the SL that the RMN and SEM was serious about protecting its ships and citizens. but what was declared an act of war was the closing of Manticore's Junction to all SL ships. Recalling the MMM was bad enough, the SL could complain about that but not really do anything legally but protest diplomatically. What really got the Mandarins attention though was the closing of SEM space and the Manticore Junction to SL ships. That is what they really considered an act of economic warfare.

Of those thousands of merchant ships, a good portion of those crews are not manning RMN warships. Many of the rest are probably already headed out on runs in Silesia, the Andermani Empire and now in the Republic of Haven. SL space is off limits atm as would be Verge space because they would not be able to guarantee the safety of any MMM ships there in the line of fire. You might not think it so, but the Verge is unfriendly space atm as far as the RMN and SEM is concerned. Any MMM ship traveling through there is taking its life in its hands and those ships are vulnerable to SLN ships.

Oyster Bay did eliminate the shipyards and space stations, but there are still crews that need to be rotated out for some much needed R&R, replacements for crew killed in battle and a thousand other things. Sooner than later the shipyards will be turning out ships again and when that happens, they need those trained reservists -there- to man them. As soon as the ships start coming out of the slipways, they will need to be fully manned and ready for acceptance trials, then battle. The reservists can't be half way across explored space on a merchant vessel.

Draken wrote:Going back to strategy. Easiest one is using BC, CLAC, CA, DD, CL as raiding forces to destroy every enemy shipyard which we can find. Beowulf should have a lot of information on that. If Sollies will lose a lot of shipyards they will not have enough industrial capacity to build new ships, so they economy will be falling apart. After destroying that BC(P) should go after mining ships, smelters and everything which is part of space economy. They should be able to rebuild it pretty quickly but every month of delay is good and we have commanders which commanded that kind of battles before (Diamato, Honor, Tourville, Theisman, Truman, Henke, Oversteeger, Miklós) only problem will be with scouting and making list of which should be attacked. And another good idea would be to have few freighters with military grade impellers so they can carry anything valuable. Captured prototypes, any useful materials and other stuff.


Doing that would ensure that you piss off those systems when you wreck the very basis of their system economy by destroying it. Manticore wants to have those systems as friends at least. Turning everything in the system but what's on the planet into junk and scrap metal is not the way to do that.

Think of it this way (assuming you live in the US): if a foreign nation attacked the US and systematically managed to destroy the military then went down the list destroying the industrial/economic infrastructure of the states, including your state, basically reducing them to poverty, do you think those states or the Us would be grateful to that nation and want to be friends with it after they wrecked the country? Most of the population would be 'Hell no! Screw those (insert insult of choice)!' As kzt puts it, it would pit the 3 billion of the SEM (not including the unknown number in Talbot and Silesia) and the population of Haven against the hundreds of billions to several trillion people of the SL. Unless you're going to start glassing planets, wiping out system infrastructure like you outlined isn't going to make anyone any friends.

Edit: to Relax, the RHN isn't in any real condition to be raiding SL space anymore than the RMN is. They lost a huge chunk of their fleet in First Manticore. And it was a larger percentage than the SL lost in Second Manticore. The SLN had far greater reserves while the RHN sent practically all of its fleet in one massive attack except for the Home Fleet. The Republic doesn't have that many ships to spare yet until more come out of the slipways of the shipyards.
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