Future Space Lords

The First Space Lord was a member of the Manticoran Admiralty and the senior uniformed officer of the Royal Manticoran Navy.

The obvious choice here is for Hamish to drop back into uniform. Double hat for a while ala Thom Theisman until they can decide who can drop into one of the jobs.

The Second Space Lord was one of the Lords of Admiralty who controlled the Royal Manticoran Navy, responsible for handling operational and tactical planning. He or she was also the head of the Office of Naval Intelligence and the Bureau of Planning.

Multi-hatting again. Honor would be my suggestion here, and have her remain as commander of home fleet.

Of course these choices potentially do run into the issue of married and in the came command.

The Third Space Lord was a member of the Lords of Admiralty that controlled the Royal Manticoran Navy, in charge of the Bureau of Ships.
The holder of the office oversaw all construction and maintenance in association with the fiscal directions of the Second Lord of the Admiralty. The major space stations in the Manticore System as well as the dispersed yards in planetary orbits were under his or her control.

Admiral Sir Craig Warner, assuming he survived of course.

The Fourth Space Lord was a member of the Lords of Admiralty that controlled the Royal Manticoran Navy, in charge of the Bureau of Weapons.
As such, he or she was responsible for the research and development of new systems for the Navy. (HH9)

Admiral Hemphill

The Fifth Space Lord was a member of the Lords of Admiralty who controlled the Royal Manticoran Navy. The Fifth Space Lord was responsible for the Bureau of Personnel (BuPers for short), which handled recruitment, training, and personnel assignments for the Navy.

Admiral Khumalo. Double hat Mike with Talbott Station command and 10th fleet command.

The Sixth Space Lord was a member of the Lords of he Admiralty who controlled the Royal Manticoran Navy. The Sixth Space Lord was responsible for the Bureau of Training (BuTrain for short), which handled the training and education of naval personnel in accordance with the Third Lord of Admiralty.

Khumalo again, but have Captain Shaw actually run the thing, probably with a promotion, and in due course, to take over outright.

The Seventh Space Lord was the seventh most senior uniformed officer of the Royal Manticoran Navy, holding the offices of Surgeon General of the Star Kingdom of Manticore and head of the Bureau of Medicine.
Around 1920 PD, the position was held by Vice Admiral Allen Mannock. (HH9)

Fritz seems an obvious choice, though I'm sure there are lots of administrators, and doctors, who could fill the spot.



Sarnow is too important where he is to drag back, similar to Mike.
Alice is better off where she is, and likely for the next fleet command anyway.

Hard to think of who else is alive lol.

JenBurdoo2 wrote:I've always been confused over the difference between First Space/Sea Lord and First Lord of the Admiralty. Why aren't they the same thing? I just looked them up on Wikipedia and am only more confused, as it says there wasn't always a First Lord of the Admiralty because sometimes it was "in commission." Wouldn't that mean... it existed? Do they mean "in abeyance?"

Sorry, I know that doesn't really have anything to do with the Honorverse, but still -- what are the First, Second, etc Lords of the Admiralty, and how are they related, or not, to the First, Second etc Space Lords? The Space Lords are admirals, which... does not make them Lords of the Admiralty?

And what early RMN officer was so enamored of ancient Terran naval history that she decided to mirror so many RN traditions, anyway? Some descendant of RunsForCelery, no doubt.

The First Lord of the Admiralty is basically the Secretary of Defense (and Secretary of the Navy) - civilian head of the military (can't give orders, but set policy). The Second & Third Lords are undersecretaries, and assist. The Space Lords are more of a High Command - they run the military, given the policies set by the civilians.

Space Lords are people which are creating strategy, manage personnel and ships. In very extreme cases they are commanders, but it's really rare. In RMN we have Seven Space Lords.
First commander in chief and under him is BuPlan
Second is responsible for intelligence, counter intelligence, informations, analyzing that data, also commander of ONI
Third is responsible for weapon and development of new toys for Navy and and analyzing captured hardware.
Fourth is working closely with Third because under him is BuShips which is designing new ships and upgrading older, if I'm correct he also have all yards in his domain.
Fifth is responsible for manpower needs of fleet and stations, under him is BuPers. Also Sixth and Seventh are in his domain. Sixth is responsible for Saganami Island and ATC, OCS and education of future soldiers.
Seventh is responsible for hospitals, hospital ships, wounded and all that stuff. Basingford is in his domain.
Commander of the Marine Corp is under and at the same time on the same level of seniority as First. Because on meeting of Commander of all branches off armed forces he has the same rank as First, but in fleet structure he is under him.
If I'm correct Honor was for a quite long time Sixth Space Lord.

Draken wrote:Space Lords are people which are creating strategy, manage personnel and ships. In very extreme cases they are commanders, but it's really rare. In RMN we have Seven Space Lords.
First commander in chief and under him is BuPlan
Second is responsible for intelligence, counter intelligence, informations, analyzing that data, also commander of ONI
Third is responsible for weapon and development of new toys for Navy and and analyzing captured hardware.
Fourth is working closely with Third because under him is BuShips which is designing new ships and upgrading older, if I'm correct he also have all yards in his domain.
Fifth is responsible for manpower needs of fleet and stations, under him is BuPers. Also Sixth and Seventh are in his domain. Sixth is responsible for Saganami Island and ATC, OCS and education of future soldiers.
Seventh is responsible for hospitals, hospital ships, wounded and all that stuff. Basingford is in his domain.
Commander of the Marine Corp is under and at the same time on the same level of seniority as First. Because on meeting of Commander of all branches off armed forces he has the same rank as First, but in fleet structure he is under him.
If I'm correct Honor was for a quite long time Sixth Space Lord.

6th Space Lord is indeed the head of BuTrain, the Bureau of Training. Honor was the Commandant of the Academy, but was not the 6th Space Lord. The 6th Space Lord was her boss.

1st: Hamish Alexander

2nd: Anton, or he's if busy elsewhere Sarnow

3rd: Craig Warner. If he's not available Anton

4th: Sonja. If she's caught in the strike Alice.

5th: Shaw

6th: Honor

7th: Alferd Harrington, Fritz as second choice.

Roguevictory wrote:1st: Hamish Alexander

2nd: Anton, or he's if busy elsewhere Sarnow

3rd: Craig Warner. If he's not available Anton

4th: Sonja. If she's caught in the strike Alice.

5th: Shaw

6th: Honor

7th: Alferd Harrington, Fritz as second choice.

Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

Are you anticipating a massive reversal of the political scene in the Old SKM, that REQUIRES that all the cabinet level ministers be changed to representatives of the new politically ascendant parties? That is the only circumstance I can imagine in which Hamish Alexander-Harrington could possibly end up out of his current cabinet appointment and back in any uniformed position.

If Tom Caparelli buys it, then look for a promotion FROM BELOW, not a demotion of his boss. At a guess, this MIGHT be a circumstance that would cause the Queen to recall her defacto Viceroy from Silesia, and appoint Mark Sarnow as 1st Space Lord. (Bachfisch might make a good replacement in Silesia.) Or for that matter, how about Yancy Parks, if he is still alive after BoMA and YS.

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:1st: Hamish Alexander

2nd: Anton, or he's if busy elsewhere Sarnow

3rd: Craig Warner. If he's not available Anton

4th: Sonja. If she's caught in the strike Alice.

5th: Shaw

6th: Honor

7th: Alferd Harrington, Fritz as second choice.

Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

Are you anticipating a massive reversal of the political scene in the Old SKM, that REQUIRES that all the cabinet level ministers be changed to representatives of the new politically ascendant parties? That is the only circumstance I can imagine in which Hamish Alexander-Harrington could possibly end up out of his current cabinet appointment and back in any uniformed position.

If Tom Caparelli buys it, then look for a promotion FROM BELOW, not a demotion of his boss. At a guess, this MIGHT be a circumstance that would cause the Queen to recall her defacto Viceroy from Silesia, and appoint Mark Sarnow as 1st Space Lord. (Bachfisch might make a good replacement in Silesia.) Or for that matter, how about Yancy Parks, if he is still alive after BoMA and YS.

dreamrider

I thinking about a merger of the two roles in response to the crisis.

Not gonna happen. The kinds of pressures you are postulating are not going to happen in the SEM political-military structure short of someone seizing the high orbitals of Manticore, and then it is moot.

There are historical examples of the kind of amalgamation you are talking about, but they are invariably in not-yet-mature government-military structures, generally ones that have not yet developed a separation of the political power and the warrior powers within the state, or very small personal-cult/ personal retinue states.

Look instead at Great Britain at the nadir of its fortunes in WWII. There was never any question raised of combining the political post of Minister of War and the military Chief of the Imperial General Staff.

Besides, DW has already done this once.

But note that Tom Theisman was placed in this position in a society that was recovering from a nasty civil war, and near dissolution. I would argue that the RH of that moment could be placed in that category of not-yet-mature government-military structures.

I'll also argue that, if there is nothing else that T. Theisman and Louise Prichart do for the internals of Haven government structure before they leave office, they will enshrine a principle that no one else will EVER hold both those offices at once.

dreamrider

There is a that uniformed soldier can't be Secretary of Defense, he must be retired or no half pay status. And First Space Lord must be an uniformed soldier, so they can't be connected to each other.

Roguevictory wrote:

dreamrider wrote:Why are so many folks in this thread proposing that the Queen give Hamish a demotion to 1st Space Lord? That's like proposing that a formerly uniformed SecDef should step down to go back into uniform to serve as Chief of Naval Operations.

Are you anticipating a massive reversal of the political scene in the Old SKM, that REQUIRES that all the cabinet level ministers be changed to representatives of the new politically ascendant parties? That is the only circumstance I can imagine in which Hamish Alexander-Harrington could possibly end up out of his current cabinet appointment and back in any uniformed position.

If Tom Caparelli buys it, then look for a promotion FROM BELOW, not a demotion of his boss. At a guess, this MIGHT be a circumstance that would cause the Queen to recall her defacto Viceroy from Silesia, and appoint Mark Sarnow as 1st Space Lord. (Bachfisch might make a good replacement in Silesia.) Or for that matter, how about Yancy Parks, if he is still alive after BoMA and YS.

dreamrider

I thinking about a merger of the two roles in response to the crisis.

Under no circumstances would they ever merge the civilian and military heads of defense. There are very good reasons for keeping them separate. If necessary, the First Lord of the Admiralty does not need to have any military experience at all--it is a civilian job and can be filled by a politician who is capable of working with the military. You would never ever ever combine the First Lord of the Admiralty with the First Space Lord. It is an important distinction for keeping the military subject to civilian control.