Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Carl wrote:@OP: Your forgetting a huge factor. Fusion Powered missiles have repeatedly been described as having "vastly greater" energy budgets. So their ability to penetrate terminal defenses goes way up as a result.
The Mk16 was probably at the time of development about as small a missile as you could build and squeeze in a micro-fusion plant. At that point the slight extra mass of a second drive doesn't look like a very bad idea since it would have minimal numbers impact.
At the same time the larger size probably allowed a few other similar low mass and volume cost improvements like much better sensors.
In addition i don;t recall any non-MDM/DDM missile being described with off boresight capabilities, and the text attributes that heavily to the vast velocity increases DDM/MDM makes possible, so i doubt ERM's would be capable of it, or they'd take a vastly greater penalty from it if they are.
Ok, I am getting caught up on this forum today. Thanks for all the comments.
FWIW, I didn't "forget" anything. For a non-mdm ship with off-bore capability, read the HOS entry on the Saganami-B, the Wolfhound DD or the Avalon class cruiser. Also, the Shrike, and Ferret class LACs.
I never said a fusion powered cruiser weight missile was undesirable. Or that its improvements were irrelevent. What I said was, that at the time of introduction it wasn't needed for the RMN to win the fights and battles that were described.
The lack of text regarding any action by ERM-equipped ships --aside from Gauntlet--means we, as readers, do not have background to appreciate exactly how much a combination of technologies served to advance the capabilities on display. The only peer (near-peer) to the Saganami-A was the Mars; there is no Sag-vs-Mars text. We get a bit of it with the Saganami vs Andi cruiser in WoH; but the text said the RMN vessel "was winning handily" when a golden bb took it out. Gauntlet took out four Solarian Guardians at Tiburion, but the author somehow forgot to include much data on the Guardians or the Gaunlet. He addressed Gauntlet's weapons fit in a post in the Pearls.
There was a fair discussion of the Hellebarde fight in some threads in 2011; nearly everyone claimed the Saganami was a Bravo; but no one had mentioned the Mk13ER anywhere until SoF, several books later. We don't actually know which class of ship was involved, other than "Saganami".
Specs on the Mars are in the GSN section, I think. 11 missiles, 12 lasers, lots of point defense. It would have a lot of difficulty with a Star Knight; a SagA beats it easily; and a SagB just takes its lunch money and charges a nickel for psychiatric assistance. A Sag C kills one easily at Nuncio.
There were several technologies introduced at the same time, ca 1912-14-- the fusion powered ghost rider drones for recon; off-bore capability (the Shrike could fire 120 degrees off bore); better and more numerous missile defense systems; fire control systems that included the ability to control larger salvos. In and of themselves, those are incremental changes; taken together, they tip the balance of conventional ships strongly in the RMN's favor. Whatever R&D was working on, in the HR government, and the Janacek admiralty, there weren't enough senior policymakers left in place to push expensive construction for new missiles and new ships. The obsolete nature of the pre-war ships was evident even before Buttercup, though, and most of the design features of the "design study" for the Saganami-B were already in use in other ships by 1914.
So, as a reader, it seems that the jump to fusion missiles came too fast. Applying the tech they already had in use in the avant garde Medusa and Ferret to their light warships would have significently improved their survivabilty and increased their firepower. But new ships were not introduced--from the 1899 Culverin until the 1919 Wolfhound? From the 1902 Valiant until the 1919 Avalon? The Navy only needs heavy cruisers now?
Frankly, that is what bothers me most. I think it may actually be that point that prompted my original post.
If, as some of the posts RFC made in other topics suggest, the Mk 16 and MK 23 actually share a majority of components, then it makes sense to bring them in together. And there is enough of an interval for the drone power plants and mdm nodes to make the missiles feasible. And I don't have any quarrel with capital ships as of 1919 with the fusion birds. But I would have thought the Mk16 would have been largely limited to the Aggie; didn't the first Aggies commission in 1917 or so?
But my original point was that ERM equipped ships would have done just fine against Havenite ships at the time, and that I don't see from the text of the follow on books since WoH why he developed pushed the DDM into the CA so soon. By 1921, yes. But there are too many built by April 2021. But there is no way the majority of ships in service could have shifted so fast.
As an aside, Erewhon's exit from the Alliance and the treaty they made with Haven were only a month before Operation Thunderbolt kicked off. Not exactly enough time for any tech transfer to mean anything at all for a year or so.
And RFC made the point in several posts that Erewhon didn't have as much tech as people thought. And anyone saying only a Mk16 equipped ship is survivalble is ignoring the Aegis, its Mk36 armament, and the fact that it is sufficiently capable that the RMN did NOT build a light cruiser version of a Roland, even though it would have been more capable. Instead, they built around 200 of these light cruisers without any DDM.
All part of the same fleet, and not obsolete for what they are needed for.
As usual, too long. Sigh.
Regards,
Rob
