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Solly Fleet Advancements

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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon May 12, 2014 9:00 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
The E wrote:Current SLN designs are inadequate for the missions they're tasked to perform in any theater where GA vessels might operate, introducing a new class that's even worse at its job just to free up the marginally more usable ships in your inventory is folly.


In fact, I think the SLN should be building replacements for their War Harvest-class and Rampart-class DDs so those can be cycled back for internal security duty; where a DD is sufficent for that job. Haven used BBs for "internal security" and Manticore used Cruisers (CLs and CAs); DDs may not offer sufficient fire-power.

And I suspect the internal security concerns the the League will be facing in the Verge and Protectorates is much closer to Haven's than to the USCG.

And like you noted Haven thought old BBs were a reasonable balance of firepower, marines, and small craft capacity to keep potentially rebellious planets or fleet units from breaking away; or to but down planet side riots or rebellions; without more options than just "nuking it from orbit"
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Alizon   » Mon May 12, 2014 12:01 pm

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Well thanks for considering the proposal.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by SWM   » Mon May 12, 2014 1:34 pm

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Alizon, if you really think that a destroyer is overkill for the kinds of missions you envision, perhaps you should explain exactly what missions you envision. Because I really can't think of any mission requiring hyperdrive that destroyers are overkill for.

You mention "the equivalent of picking up Cubans trying to float to Florida in rubber dingy's or dealing with pirates in a rowboat with a machine gun", but there is no equivalent of these situations in the Honorverse. The Coast Guard cutter equivalent in the Honorverse is an old-style LAC or pinnace. The Solarian League does not concern itself with those local issues--that is a matter for the local government. The Solarian League Navy is responsible for the defense of the League and its members, not for local customs duties. Stopping those Cubans in dingy's is the responsibility of the local system government. The local autonomy of the League members is enshrined in the League constitution. That's why those local governments have their own system defense forces.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by kzt   » Mon May 12, 2014 1:47 pm

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Yeah, the whole internal security focus seems odd. The SLN need ships that can carry really big missiles in large numbers.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon May 12, 2014 2:40 pm

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kzt wrote:Yeah, the whole internal security focus seems odd. The SLN need ships that can carry really big missiles in large numbers.


More importantly, they need ships that can STOP lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, of really big, really "smart" missiles.

Secondly, they needs ships that can control lots of missiles.

It doesn't matter if the ships can carry lots of missiles, or even if they can tow lots of missiles (in pods) or are accompanied by mine-layers or freighters full of missiles; if they can't defend themselves and/or control a heap more missiles than current ships can control, they're toast.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by kzt   » Mon May 12, 2014 2:57 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
kzt wrote:Yeah, the whole internal security focus seems odd. The SLN need ships that can carry really big missiles in large numbers.


More importantly, they need ships that can STOP lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, of really big, really "smart" missiles.

Secondly, they needs ships that can control lots of missiles.

Well, I'll agree with control, but survivability is questionable. It's certainly desirable, but not required.

If Home fleet a BoM had no missile defenses at all, would they have taken any more damage? Well, no they were annihilated.

Ok, if they had had no missile defenses would they have caused LESS damage? No, they were destroyed well after the point where they could impact their missiles.

If every single ship in Home fleet had been a modified freighter without missile defense but covered with pods and able to control 400 missiles each, would they have done more or less damage to Haven? More, a lot more.

Now you certifiably wouldn't want to build my straw man of no missile defense, but seems impossible to effectively defend against massive missile fire*, so a focus on killing people who can shoot at you seems like a viable option.

* note that in one chapter a salvo of 11,000 missiles is trivially swatted down by a pair of SDs and some BCs, while a few chapters later salvos of 12,000 missiles against multiple SD squadrons is destroying SDs with each salvo, so exactly what is massive seems to kind of variable...
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon May 12, 2014 3:11 pm

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kzt wrote:Well, I'll agree with control, but survivability is questionable. It's certainly desirable, but not required.

...

Now you certifiably wouldn't want to build my straw man of no missile defense, but seems impossible to effectively defend against massive missile fire*, so a focus on killing people who can shoot at you seems like a viable option.


Unless you think suicide after the initial salvo is appropriate, improved missile defense is an unquestionable need for the SLN. It doesn't matter how many missiles you can control if you can't survive the return fire; especially if your first salvo isn't decisive.

kzt wrote:* note that in one chapter a salvo of 11,000 missiles is trivially swatted down by a pair of SDs and some BCs, while a few chapters later salvos of 12,000 missiles against multiple SD squadrons is destroying SDs with each salvo, so exactly what is massive seems to kind of variable...


I'm not sure which chapter(s) your talking about, or who owned the ships on either side. Assuming equivalent ship numbers and types, any GA force could handle a mere 11,000 missiles even with dragon's teeth and dazzlers seeded among them. The SLN force would have trouble with 1,100 missiles even without dragon's teeth and dazzlers.

The variable is mostly who owns the targets -- the SLN definition of "massive" is at least an order of magnitude smaller than the GA definition.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by biochem   » Mon May 12, 2014 8:23 pm

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Just one thought re Frigates. Everyone is assuming that all 2000 governments will choose to build warships which make logical sense and that since frigates do not make logical sense, they won't be built. Since when do governments restrict themselves to building logical defense projects? The US government (and others as well) have spent money on all sorts of useless boondoggles.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by biochem   » Mon May 12, 2014 8:36 pm

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Another though re Alizon's super-armed commercial vessels. This strikes me as something a civilian shipper may build on their own. All the governments are likely to be in at least some disorder and politicians being politicians will be arguing about what to do to save their planet and whatever military building sites they do have will be building emergency additions to their SDFs etc. All of this leaves civilian shippers in the SL in a bind vs rising piracy. In this type of a mess I can see civilian shippers re-tooling merchant vessels to be armed and even building super-armed fast ones ones such as Alizon has described on their own to protect themselves since I doubt their governments (and the politicians who run them who will be able to argue among themselves forever without doing anything constructive) will be able to do anything about the situation in a reasonable amount of time.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by SWM   » Mon May 12, 2014 10:46 pm

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biochem wrote:Just one thought re Frigates. Everyone is assuming that all 2000 governments will choose to build warships which make logical sense and that since frigates do not make logical sense, they won't be built. Since when do governments restrict themselves to building logical defense projects? The US government (and others as well) have spent money on all sorts of useless boondoggles.

Well, the purpose of the thread was to propose useful things that the Solarian League could try to develop. No one has said that no one anywhere would be fool enough to make frigates (especially since we know that some backwaters do).
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