What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

Roguevictory wrote:
True but there is a huge difference between a planet bound bomber sacrificing strategic mobility for combat power and an interstellar warship doing the same. I'm not saying that it can't happen but the loss of combat power for a streak drive would have to be very high, higher then I personally believe likely given what we know of Hyperdrive mass and the Mantie talent for miniaturizing devices, for it to be a bad exchange.

DO we actually KNOW anything about how big it is on any ship?

And i wouldn´t expect any Streak drive shrinking anytime soon, remember, 1st generation is likely going to be just 1 small step away from experimental prototype, trying to shrink something like that probably wont be very safe.
And it could very well be that they simply can´t shrink it much or at all even when they achieve a mature tech.
Nothing saying that someone else cannot be "the best" in some area of tech.

Vince wrote:GlobalSecurity.org's B1-A Specifications lists the cruise speed at 50,000 ft as 648 mph (I'm guessing that the site is using nautical miles per hour here, as aircraft use knots for airspeed), with max speed at 500 ft. (750 mph) and max speed as Mach 2.0 at 50,000 feet (1,320 mph).

If they were using nautical miles then it would say "Kts" or "knots" not "mph", mph is never used in regards to nautical miles, that´s what knots is for.

n7axw wrote:One has to do with retrofitting current SDPs with the streak drive.

Everyone is essentially saying that retrofitting sounds more or less unlikely.

n7axw wrote:The other subject has to do with new build. Harold's logic makes sense

No it doesn´t. He is saying that the monetary pricetag of the drive would be a reason not to build it.

I say again, anyone that can "ok" the addition of Keyhole platforms as a standard outfit(which entails putting some of the most expensive parts in high concentration outside the protection of the ship) isn´t going to even blink at a larger hyper generator UNLESS it is EXTREMELY expensive(either in material or in time), and the probability for that is quite small.

Jonathan_S wrote:Is the lowest sub-band in the Iota bands (with a streak drive) more dangerous than the lowest sub-band in the Theta bands (for a non-streak military drive)? More dangerous than the highest sub-band in the Theta bands?

It's been stated, right there, that if you cross into iota you die. What the streak drive does is allow you to survive entering iota.

kzt wrote:It's been stated, right there, that if you cross into iota you die. What the streak drive does is allow you to survive entering iota.

That got me thinking; why does crossing the Iota wall cause you to Buckley? Is it the act of crossing the wall itself? Or does it have to to with actually being in the Iota bands for a picosecond?

I think I remember narration saying that nobody had tried to cross the Iota wall and survived, but that doesn't answer the question either way.

I would think that if it was the actual act of crossing the wall that was the killer, people would have looked at the increasing shear across all of the lower walls, and figured how much they needed to withstand for crossing Iota. I don't think it would have taken nearly as long as it did to get there.

If it was being in Iota space, I could understand taking so long, because it is impossible to look across bands, so the only way you could get data on what its like there is by going there and coming back, and the only way to go there and come back is to get data on what its like there. So you would basically have to do a "guess and check" type of development, and those doing the checking would spend a lot of time trying to find job that is more survivable.

Weird Harold wrote:

Castenea wrote:Harold, sorry but your arguments are non-sense, the better comparison is not the Triple expansion steam engines vs. steam turbines, ...

That isn't my example.

My preferred example is the B1-B Lancer losing the variable inlet geometry that made the B1-A a mach two or three heavy bomber, the B-2 Spirit, and the longevity of the B-52. All cases of Strategic Mobility being sacrificed to economics and/or combat capability.

So you use an even worse example? There are several reasons why there are no supersonic heavy bombers today, but the key is probably this quote:

Given the sharply reduced range of aircraft at supersonic speed I'm at a loss to see how the B-1A's supersonic abilities can be classified as strategic mobility. The plane was designed for a relatively brief supersonic sprint through through the Soviet air defenses, but it would be subsonic from take-off until that point, and again once through the defensive belt.

Given how they are used tactically what is the purpose of increasing the speed at which a heavy bomber gets from base to target, when once over target, loiter time is a primary consideration?

A streak drive is likely to increase the time a ship can spend on station as opposed to in transit as I doubt the size increase of the Hyper drive will be sufficient to significantly impact bunkerage or food and water supplies.

Weird Harold wrote:
That isn't my example.

My preferred example is the B1-B Lancer losing the variable inlet geometry that made the B1-A a mach two or three heavy bomber, the B-2 Spirit, and the longevity of the B-52. All cases of Strategic Mobility being sacrificed to economics and/or combat capability. Given the sharply reduced range of aircraft at supersonic speed I'm at a loss to see how the B-1A's supersonic abilities can be classified as strategic mobility. The plane was designed for a relatively brief supersonic sprint through through the Soviet air defenses, but it would be subsonic from take-off until that point, and again once through the defensive belt.

Strategically, there is basically no difference where you base your bombers, so there is no need to move them around quickly. Anything that happens between when they begin the attack run and when they return to base is tactical, not strategic, and that is what the supersonic ability was designed for. Where you base your SDs, on the other hand makes a big difference strategically.

And frankly, it is a bad example because if you have to destroy something quickly, you don't need a bomber; you could hit it with a couple of missiles. With cruse missiles and ICBMs, there is really no point in having supersonic heavy bombers.

Even the fastest bomber ever designed takes longer to get from even the closest US base to Moscow than a missile would. A quick Google search says that ICBMs can make it from the Continental US in 13 minutes.

There is just no equivalent of that in the Honorverse.

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Is the lowest sub-band in the Iota bands (with a streak drive) more dangerous than the lowest sub-band in the Theta bands (for a non-streak military drive)? More dangerous than the highest sub-band in the Theta bands?

It's been stated, right there, that if you cross into iota you die. What the streak drive does is allow you to survive entering iota.

Yes I know. But it's also been stated that usually only courier ships ride the highest Theta bands.

See this quote from SVW

Short Victorious War wrote:Even for courier boats, who routinely rode the risky upper edge of hyper-space's theta band, it would take something like sixteen days to get a message one-way between Haven and the Barnett fleet base across the hundred and twenty-seven light-years between them

RFC did say in an infodump on Hyper-band access by size that all military ships could go equally high in the hyper bands, but normally the larger ships weren't risked on the higher ones. (But he did not clarify if "high in the hyper bands" meant the Theta bands in general or the 'upper edge' of the Theta bands)

But what makes the upper edge riskier than other parts of the Theta band and why would you run there unless it gave some additional speed advantage. (After all if all the Theta bands allowed a warship to pull exactly 3000.0c effective velocity, and the upper ones were riskier the the lower ones, there'd be no reason to ever use the upper ones.)


Once you have a streak drive (and can survive entering the Iota bands at all) I'm wondering what is the comparable risk vs the Theta bands*.
It is exactly as safe as the Theta bands?
Are some of the Iota bands riskier than some of the Theta bands?
Are all the Iota bands riskier than any of the Theta bands?

How much extra risk is there to balance against the extra speed.


That (unknown to us) relative risk level feeds into whether you'd routinely use Iota bands for ships more valuable than dispatch boats.

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* I assume that since you don't need a hyper drive to stay in a band that the risk of being in a given band is not altered by the quality of your hyper generator. IOW a streak drive does let you safely crack the Iota and Kappa walls, but the risks of being in the Theta bands should be identical for a streak drive and a non-streak ship. (Though the risk of crossing the Theta wall or moving between Theta sub-bands might be lower with a Streak drive)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Yes, I seem to have remembered that wrong, my appologies. I believe my mis-remembering comes from thinking that White Haven was too experienced to be commanding just 2 BC squadrons, and must have comodeered the BCs under his command (and 3 others) for the mission.

None the less the point still stands, White Haven was sent to Yeltsin with BCs because they could get there faster than SDs (and deal with the problem adequately), though not as fast as a light cruiser who could be risked to bounce off the Iota wall. Larger ships, though they could be driven just as hard, are not risked. It has not been stated that even with the new technlogy that the Iota and Kappa bands do not impose just as much risk as the Theta band currently does. And unless the new technology makes those speeds as safe as the lower bands, SDs will not be risked in those bands for the majority of operations.

So while it makes sense to design any new builds with the streak tech (or streak tech in mind), If retrofits are possible, retrofitting lighter units which are more likely to use the technology should have a priority over SDs, given the limited ability currently to maintain ships.

It all comes down to info we don't know. I think a lot of it revolves around the "sub-bands". Based on Alice's speed run it seems that you can get marginally better velocity multipliers in the higher sub-bands, so a ship riding the Iota wall will travel marginally faster than one lower in the Theta bands. (Otherwise why risk "bouncing off the Iota wall")

But is the Theta band itself highly dangerous, or just its highest sub-bands? (How does the risk increase as you increase bands and sub-bands, and how to the rewards vary as you do?)

Is the lowest sub-band in the Iota bands (with a streak drive) more dangerous than the lowest sub-band in the Theta bands (for a non-streak military drive)? More dangerous than the highest sub-band in the Theta bands?


We know next to nothing about the sub-bands, and also very little about the risks per band (and nothing about the risks in the Iota and Kappa bands). That all makes it impossible to judge the tradeoffs involved.

I just realized that both of you and Weird Harold are looking at the question of installing streak drives in GA SDs & SDPs in either new construction or as retrofits from a different point of view than I was taking. And you are right to take that view. However, I am also right in my view. (Is this a win-win situation or what? )

All of you are taking the point of view of the Grand Alliance, which just has Herlander's information about the streak drive (lots of theory, unknown amount of practical information) along with their own experience in building and operating hyper drives, plus navigating hyperspace in the hyper-bands they can reach.

The GA is in the position of early explorers, who can suddenly see across a formerly fog-shrouded body of water to distant lands. They are going to be cautious in how they approach it (here be dragons), but they now know it is there and they can (eventually) get to it.

So they will produce prototypes for testing, and once they have a successful working design, they will put it into production on smaller units first, following the example of introducing the (improved by BuShips, IIRC) Grayson style inertial compensators in RMN service (we first saw it as readers on HMS Nike in The Short Victorious War, but there might have been--no way to tell in the absence of textev or an infodump--other smaller units that got the first production design first).

And once they have that successful working design, they will be able to determine (and test a scaled-up prototype) what the upper physical (mass, volume, power, cooling, etc.) requirements are for a SD sized streak drive. From that starting point they will then be able to:

1) Give that information to the SD(P) design teams who will use that information in designing the compartment the streak drive will occupy in new construction.

2) Give that same information to the SD(P) refit teams who will use that in determining whether it is currently feasible to refit a unit with the streak drive.

3) Work on improving performance, reducing cost and the physical requirements the streak drive needs.

It will then be a race between 1 and 2, depending on how fast 3 advances, and how fast 1 and 2 can react to advances in 3.

As far as the unknowns (potential dangers) of the iota and kappa hyper-bands, a lot of the uncertainties will have been discovered and dealt with by the lighter units that will get the streak drive first.

That's the Grand Alliance viewpoint, which you all seem to share. And it is a perfectly valid viewpoint. But my point of view is that:

We, as readers, know that the streak drive can be used to safely travel in both the iota and kappa bands of hyperspace, and it imposes either a negligible or no additional risk other than the normal risks associated with traveling in hyperspace.

Here's how we know that:

Mission of Honor, Chapter 38 wrote:The "private yacht" was about the size of most navies' battlecruisers, and almost as heavily armed. Which didn't prevent it from being one of the most luxuriously appointed vessels in the galaxy... as well as one of the fastest. It had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else's ship could have managed it.
Albrecht Detweiler reflected on exactly what that implied as he stood to one side on what would have been the flag deck aboard an actual warship and watched the enormous space station, gleaming in the reflected light of the F6 star called Darius, growing larger on the visual displays as MANS Genesis approached it. The station--known officially as Darius Prime orbited the planet Gamma, Darius' only habitable world, and at the moment, it was over Gamma's night side, just approaching terminator. The planetary surface below it sparkled with lines and beads of light, and their were four other stations to keep it company, although none of them were remotely the same size as Manticore's Hephaestus or Vulcan.

***Snip***

"We'll be docking with the station in about thirty-five minutes, Sir," Genesis' captain told him.
"Thank you," Detwieler replied, suppressing the urge to smile. Hayden Milne had been his yacht's skipper for over three T-years, during which time he'd been firmly trained to never--ever-- refer to him by name. He'd been simply "Sir" to every member of the crew for as long as anyone could remember, and Detweiler's temptation to smile faded as he thought about that. He was doomed to stay in the shadows for at least a while longer, after all.

***Snip***

"I suppose I should wander back to my quarters and tell my wife," he continued out loud.
"Of course, Sir."
Detweiler nodded to the captain, then turned and headed for the lift, followed even here by Heinrich Stabolis, his enhanced bodyguard.

***Snip traveling in the lift***

... They walked down the wide, tastefully decorated passageway to Dewiler's private suite, and he pressed the admittance button himself.
"Yes?" a pleasant soprano voice said after a moment.
"It's me, Evie," he said. "Time to go in about thirty minutes."
"Then I should assume Heinrich's managed to get you down here without any gravy on your shirt?"
The door opened, and Evelina Detweiler looked out at her husband. ......

***Snip description of Evelina's bodyguard***

"No," Albrecht said no, mildly, "I not only manged not to spill the gravy, but I've actually had two cups of coffee without dribbling any of it down my chin."
"I am impressed," Evelina told him with a chuckle, then stood back to let him through the doorway. He smiled and touched her lightly on the cheek. The Long-Range Planning Board had known what it was doing when it paired the two of them, he thought. Sometimes the LRPB's choices resulted in pairings that couldn't stand each other. Officially, that didn't happen, of course, but unofficially everyone knew it did. Fortunately, mistakes like that could usually be fixed, and in the case of an alpha line pairing like any of the Detwiler, the Board's members put special effort into trying to pick compatibles.
"Just let me change my jacket," he told her.
"Fine. But not the red one," she said firmly.
"I like the red on," he protested.
"I know you do, dear." She shuddered. "On the other hand, I'm still hoping the can do something about your taste in clothing in our grandchildren."

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

The fact that MANS Genesis "had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else's ship could have managed it" indicates it was using the streak drive to travel in the iota or kappa bands of hyperspace.

Would the Mesan Alignment* let Albrecht Detweiler travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

Would Albrecht Detweiler, who from all we have seen of his family life appears to love his wife, let Evelina travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

Would Evelina Detweiler, who from all we have seen of his family life appears to love her husband, let Albrecht travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

Would Albrecht Detweiler's sons (clones), who seem to have a normal family relationship with him and Evelina, let Albrecht travel with Evelina in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

* Since the center of the Mesan Alignment is the Detweilers, particularly Albrecht, would Albrecht Detweiler, who from all we have seen of him and his recognition of how things really are (minus his blind spot of genetic supremacy must rule and rub Beowulf's nose in it), let himself travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

I think the answers to all those questions is:

No, traveling in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands is NOT more risky than regular hyperspace travel.

And, it allows for greater strategic mobility and reach (as well as flexibility in deployments--more good options are better).

And that's my point of view, as a reader, on why eventually the Grand Alliance will have streak drives on board its SD(P)s, either designed in as new construction or refitted to existing units.

Castenea wrote:So you use an even worse example? There are several reasons why there are no supersonic heavy bombers today, but the key is probably this quote:

Given the sharply reduced range of aircraft at supersonic speed I'm at a loss to see how the B-1A's supersonic abilities can be classified as strategic mobility.

Given how they are used tactically what is the purpose of increasing the speed at which a heavy bomber gets from base to target, when once over target, loiter time is a primary consideration?

The B1-A was NOT designed or intended as a tactical bomber. It was designed and intended as a replacement for the B52 as the primary Nuclear Bomber.

Bombers as a rule do NOT loiter over a target, they get in, drop their bombs and depart. The only "bomber" that needs to loiter in the area (not over the target) is a Close Air Support mission, and the only reason Heavy Bombers can perform CAS missions is precision munitions like JDAM.

Supersonic aircraft are NOT limited to short sprints; The Concorde flew the majority of the over-ocean portions of its routes at a sustained Mach 2.2 and the SR-71 flew most of its missions at Mach 3+. The Tu-160 is capable of 2000 Km at mach 1.5, according to Wikipedia.