The Two General's Problem

penny wrote:Context guys. Until MoH a lot of people still did not believe. They only suspected, as far as the Onion knew. But my post was meant for the 90+ % of the galaxy who did not suspect or believe. Like the entire Solarian League. My statement is saying that Detweiler did not, could not, afford to change the opinions of the other 90+ % of the galaxy from only suspecting to removing all shadow of a doubt. He was trying to deny them a "smoking gun" by only leaving them a smoking hole in the ground.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm sorry, I do now see you said "Until MoH a lot of people still did not believe"

I'd missed that because the conversation you were replying to appears to be almost entirely about MoH (or later) events, and so I missed you were talking about earlier instead of about what people believed when planning the attack on Mesa -- when their beliefs might affect the Houdini evacuation.

tlb wrote: do not see where you needed to apologize. The relevant dialog was about the expedited Houdini and especially about the explosions that occurred upon the arrival of Henke's fleet. The Malign was known to the people that mattered and if the crowds on the street did not know, their knowledge (or lack thereof) had no effect on events. Yes, the explosions did initially pump up anger at Manticore, but that dissipated as more stories came out. Even Audrey O'Hanrahan (an agent of the Alignment) did not blame the GA in the end.

Jonathan, you did not need to apologize. The fact checking about MoH came after the initial posts. I picked up on it then. I wasn't sure which book the events happened in. But to me it does not matter. Before and after MoH, there are still lots of people who do not know, suspect or believe. So, my point still stands. Albrecht could not afford to sway the remaining 90+ % of the galaxy to the GA's side. My reasoning there is the MA could not afford to have that much more manpower involved in a search. A search through internal records and the galaxy. He had to leave a shadow of a doubt for the rest of the galaxy and possibly even for O'Hanrahan.

And, again, all of "the people who mattered" were dirty with Green Pines excrement. That negated what they said. They were only trying to deflect. As many people in the SL stated. As the MA themselves intended. Albrecht could not afford to undermine the Green Pines operation.

If the Haven sector really knew something concrete, then they would not have been duped so easily with Galton. So, again, Albrecht was trying not to remove all doubt by destroying the facility. There was a lot of illegal activity in that facility. Some of what would have been found inside the facility could have helped find Darius. Or pointed to the existence of another location.

tlb wrote:Remember the Gaul minders that the evacuees had? One of them would be happy to press the button.

Jonathan_S wrote:Especially if you lied to them and set them up with escape and evasion plans so they thought they'd be able to get away afterwards. Just don't tell them that the button(s) location(s) also have nuclear scuttling charges.

Oops.

(Though the Gauls are true enough believers that they do seem extremely likely to willingly kill themselves as part of covering the MAlign's secrets -- so you probably don't need that extra insurance)

But the Gauls are not the sharpest stylus in the box. And they have lives and are human too. Well, close to human anyway. smile

At any rate, I would tend to think the button was located somewhere secret. Like in Detweiler's own quarters, or somewhere only accessible to him. I rather doubt he'd want too many people who are not inside the Onion in that facility with access to, or knowledge of, any self-destruct button.

As far as having a computer to self-destruct. I don't think so. You simply do not trust certain things to computers.

And what computer would that be anyway? A computer underground cannot see the fleet's arrival. It had to be tied to sensors. And those sensors could have been severed by accidental or intentional damage. Like from an assault team who might have obtained classified information of the self-defense contingency.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Context guys. Until MoH a lot of people still did not believe. They only suspected, as far as the Onion knew. But my post was meant for the 90+ % of the galaxy who did not suspect or believe. Like the entire Solarian League. My statement is saying that Detweiler did not, could not, afford to change the opinions of the other 90+ % of the galaxy from only suspecting to removing all shadow of a doubt. He was trying to deny them a "smoking gun" by only leaving them a smoking hole in the ground.

I'm sorry, I do now see you said "Until MoH a lot of people still did not believe"

I'd missed that because the conversation you were replying to appears to be almost entirely about MoH (or later) events, and so I missed you were talking about earlier instead of about what people believed when planning the attack on Mesa -- when their beliefs might affect the Houdini evacuation.


In the evacuation context, the one that appears to actually matter, Albrecht has months between when his son complains to him that the Alignment's existence is public and when Mike finally shows up at Mesa. Months in which his sons all do evacuate.


(Also, I can't recall any evidence that Simones knew of the existence of Albrecht and the other current Detwielers. So, I don't think Manticore was aware of who ran the MAlign. So no BOLO out for Albrecht specifically.

Sure, they'd want to capture or kill the head of the MAlign, but you can't exactly put a practical BOLO out for 'an unknown person, or persons, of unknown description' So, they were a long way from IDing Albrecht as anyone special)

I am not saying that a BOLO was possible, certainly not by the readers perspective. I am saying that there is no way Albrecht could have known at the time what that bothersome GA and that loose warhead Henke could have found out. I am saying that considering the importance of the site, he had better flush all of the illegal drugs he had there or take a chance of getting caught with it. When the entire police department shows up at the housing community or apartment complex you are residing in and you have a lot of illegal stuff inside, you'd better flush it, burn it or something. The MA are not in the habit of trusting things to Lady Luck. Like some drug dealers do.

penny wrote:If the Haven sector really knew something concrete, then they would not have been duped so easily with Galton. So, again, Albrecht was trying not to remove all doubt by destroying the facility. There was a lot of illegal activity in that facility. Some of what would have been found inside the facility could have helped find Darius. Or pointed to the existence of another location.

In what way were people "duped" by Galton? I accept if you mean people might think this was the ONLY hidden site, but we will need the nest book to see if that was what happened.

But Galton really was the site that manufactured and distributed Cataphracts to enemies of the Haven sector, so shutting it down was good, in and of itself. Plus it has to contain many of the secrets that would not even be found on Mesa any longer.

What facility with "a lot of illegal activity" are you talking about? My guess is Albrecht's hideaway, but it was only a small part of the explosions. I expect that collusion was one of the very few illegal activities which took place there, its main function was to hide him.