Protector's Own - Who pays?

I think a better analogy for the Protector's Own would be to say they're like the Blair Atholl Highlanders, only fully equipped and trained like a regular military unit. In fact, they seem to regarded as something of a elite, highly motivated unit that demands and gets performance higher than the regular GSN (see _A Ship Called Francis_ and _Obligated Service_ for standards that the GSN is prepared to put up with). (The best of the GSN seems to think it a point of honour to show that they're just as good, the worst of the GSN seems to think the PO are total loons who spend too much time in the simulator and/or doing live-fire exercises.)

The GSN seems to maintain itself as, practically, a well-trained, elite navy, by isolating its slackers and embarrassments where they can't cause much trouble.

The RMN occasionally makes them First Lords of the Admiralty.

The SLN will get good, conscientious officers off flagships and ignored at ONI whenever they show their ugly faces.

Soooo... overall, the GSN may be doing pretty well handling personnel issues.

I disagree about "role as editor."
I see it as "managing editor" not "line editor."
I ween that he asks writers he respects to submit
stories, and then takes what they give to him.

I find a Hierarchy Of Data in published Honorverse work:
(I vaguely recall DW mentioning it, ISTR)
1st: Published Novels and Shorts under Weber's name;
2nd: Fiction by others which Weber later uses in his own stories;
3rd: Fiction by others which he has not used (yet);
4th: "Non-Fiction" data which he has not used (yet).
I ween that Groups 3 & 4 are particularly subject to
alteration at Weber's whim.
If he uses that data unaltered, it rises into Group 2.

"Obligated Service" is not a problem for me,
except that I was rather surprised that such a crew
could be kept in service, but that's Politics.
I have not objected to it, or mentioned it in this
thread before now.
I do not group it with the silly "Francis."

fallsfromtrees wrote:at bottom.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:[snip - htm]
As for A Ship Called Francis, it is a comedy, a satire,
a bit of nonsense, and not even a good one.
I, for one, will not accept anything in it as being part
of "the real Honorverse" until I see it quoted in a
"mainline" work by DW himself.
[snip - htm]

HTM

fallsfromtrees replied:

Rearranged due to the stupid quote limit. Given that
the anthologies in which A Ship Called Francis
and Obligated Service as well as
House of Steel were edited by RFC, it is really
hard for me to not accept those stories as canon.
Any non canon pieces would have dropped (edited)
out before publication by RFC in his role as editor.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I disagree about "role as editor."
I see it as "managing editor" not "line editor."
I ween that he asks writers he respects to submit
stories, and then takes what they give to him.

I find a Hierarchy Of Data in published Honorverse work:
(I vaguely recall DW mentioning it, ISTR)
1st: Published Novels and Shorts under Weber's name;
2nd: Fiction by others which Weber later uses in his own stories;
3rd: Fiction by others which he has not used (yet);
4th: "Non-Fiction" data which he has not used (yet).
I ween that Groups 3 & 4 are particularly subject to
alteration at Weber's whim.
If he uses that data unaltered, it rises into Group 2.

"Obligated Service" is not a problem for me,
except that I was rather surprised that such a crew
could be kept in service, but that's Politics.
I have not objected to it, or mentioned it in this
thread before now.
I do not group it with the silly "Francis."

I don't think he is a line editor either - that's what the peole at Baen are for. I do think he reads the story, and if it violates something of his conditions, asks the author to change it, if only to prevent this type of discussion, which he is CERTAINLY bright enough to recognize will occur. I agree with you category 4 - material he has researched and in his notes that he hasn't used yet is certainly subject to change without notice (since we have no way of noticing it) but I don't believe that there is a category 3.

1 Neither is a diversion.

They are not similar.
The GSN and the PO are funded from the Military Budget.
The flowers, from a Household Budget.
Of course, I stipulate that in an Emergency funds might
be transferred from one group to another, but normally
they would be separate Items.
Besides, Grayson's many centuries of history might have
given them a very strict definition of "Emergency!"

2 Please see my "Hierarchy Of Data" argument in my
previous post in this thread.

3 Regarding "Obligated Service,"
I agree with Jeff Engels in this thread:

"The GSN seems to ... isolat[e] its slackers ...
where they can't cause trouble."

As I said in my previous post in this thread,
"I have no problem with "Obligated Service."

PalmerSperry wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I numbered your points for convenience.
1 No.

2 Many people have not read House Of Steel, and won't.
All data in it is alterable at the whim of DW.

As for A Ship Called Francis, it is a comedy, a satire,
a bit of nonsense, and not even a good one.
I, for one, will not accept anything in it as being part
of "the real Honorverse" until I see it quoted in a
"mainline" work by DW himself.
Perhaps this means that I need not and should not post
in this thread.

1. So how is the Protector funding his own military units a diversion of funding away from the GSN anymore than the Protector funding his flower arranging hobby a similar diversion?

2. Sure, despite having being released in hardback, paperback and e-book _House of Steel_ it's entirely possible that MWW might retcon changes to it at some point. However this doesn't make it different to any other book, mainline or otherwise. And until/unless it's contradicted I would argue just like the short stories, it's canon.

3. That still leaves you _Obligated Service_ to explain away ... Two ships (of the same class IIRC?), one of which has a crew from the captain on downwards who do the bare minimum from maintenance to combat drills, the other has a Greyson-born member of the Protector's Own as the captain even though it's a GSN unit.

I think that if a Contracted Story violates something
Important in his universe, then he requests a change.
BUT I think that if he can ignore a violation, then he
does ignore it, out of respect for his fellow writer.

As for preventing this type of discussion,
I don't see him doing that, at all.
I suspect that he loves these discussions!

HTM

fallsfromtrees wrote:I don't think he is a line editor either - that's what the peole at Baen are for. I do think he reads the story, and if it violates something of his conditions, asks the author to change it, if only to prevent this type of discussion, which he is CERTAINLY bright enough to recognize will occur. I agree with you category 4 - material he has researched and in his notes that he hasn't used yet is certainly subject to change without notice (since we have no way of noticing it) but I don't believe that there is a category 3.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:The GSN and the PO are funded from the Military Budget.

I think you're correct about "Acquisitions," and possibly about "Operations and Maintenance" but not about "Personnel."

The personnel of the Protectors Own are personal vassals of Protector Benjamin and NOT members of the GSN. He is responsible for their pay and provisions; personnel costs come out of the Protector's Armsmen/security budget.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I think that if a Contracted Story violates something
Important in his universe, then he requests a change.
BUT I think that if he can ignore a violation, then he
does ignore it, out of respect for his fellow writer.
snip

Perhaps, but given that A Ship Named Francis was written by John Ringo. who has had a good working relationship with David on the Prince Roger books, I would be very surprised if there were any non-canon stuff in it.

And as evidence by the stories From the Highlands, Fanatic, and the entire Torch series, he is willing to scrap his existing time lines to accommodate a fellow author. Given this, I don't see him not asking an author to change something that was going to cause him grief down the road.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I think that if a Contracted Story violates something
Important in his universe, then he requests a change.
BUT I think that if he can ignore a violation, then he
does ignore it, out of respect for his fellow writer.
snip

Perhaps, but given that A Ship Named Francis was written by John Ringo. who has had a good working relationship with David on the Prince Roger books, I would be very surprised if there were any non-canon stuff in it.

And as evidence by the stories From the Highlands, Fanatic, and the entire Torch series, he is willing to scrap his existing time lines to accommodate a fellow author. Given this, I don't see him not asking an author to change something that was going to cause him grief down the road.

I am sorry that Howard didn't enjoy Ringo's story. It may well be that it was just my mood the day I read it, but I thought it was a hoot. Comic relief has its place.

Don

I don't see the Weber-Ringo working relationship as
so very good. Evidence: the lack of *new* sequels
(as opposed to "previously scheduled sequels")
to their collaborations & their shorts in each other's
universes, and complaints from both that their work
schedules won't mesh. My guess is that at least one of
them is trying to end their collaboration.

OTOH, Weber obviously is happy working with Flint.
Evidence: they have frequently scheduled new sequels to
their collaborations, and they frequently work in each
others' universes, despite scheduling problems.

But of course it is possible that these ideas are merely
what I wish to be true.

HTM

fallsfromtrees wrote:at bottom.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I think that if a Contracted Story violates something
Important in his universe, then he requests a change.
BUT I think that if he can ignore a violation, then he
does ignore it, out of respect for his fellow writer.
snip

Perhaps, but given that A Ship Named Francis was written by John Ringo. who has had a good working relationship with David on the Prince Roger books, I would be very surprised if there were any non-canon stuff in it.

And as evidence by the stories From the Highlands, Fanatic, and the entire Torch series, he is willing to scrap his existing time lines to accommodate a fellow author. Given this, I don't see him not asking an author to change something that was going to cause him grief down the road.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I think that if a Contracted Story violates something
Important in his universe, then he requests a change.
BUT I think that if he can ignore a violation, then he
does ignore it, out of respect for his fellow writer.
snip

fallsfromtrees wrote:
Perhaps, but given that A Ship Named Francis was written by John Ringo. who has had a good working relationship with David on the Prince Roger books, I would be very surprised if there were any non-canon stuff in it.

And as evidence by the stories From the Highlands, Fanatic, and the entire Torch series, he is willing to scrap his existing time lines to accommodate a fellow author. Given this, I don't see him not asking an author to change something that was going to cause him grief down the road.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I don't see the Weber-Ringo working relationship as
so very good. Evidence: the lack of *new* sequels
(as opposed to "previously scheduled sequels")
to their collaborations & their shorts in each other's
universes, and complaints from both that their work
schedules won't mesh. My guess is that at least one of
them is trying to end their collaboration.

OTOH, Weber obviously is happy working with Flint.
Evidence: they have frequently scheduled new sequels to
their collaborations, and they frequently work in each
others' universes, despite scheduling problems.

But of course it is possible that these ideas are merely
what I wish to be true.

HTM

Perhaps. However, the copyright on Service of the Sword is April 2003, which means the stories were written in 2002. That's 12-13 years ago, and things change in that period. I might add that also in that anthology is the story Let's Go to Prague, by John Ringo. That's two stories in one anthology - which doesn't argue at a break down in communication between them at that time.