Solar League Assembly

stewart wrote:They will have the history of the old League but will need to learn to see the other sectors as equals. That is NOT the case now.

There are perfectly valid reasons why the US, Russia, France and Germany don't see North Korea (oh, I'm sorry, the "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea") as an equal. This will also be true in the SL.

Hi Stewart,

Kudos for your excellent points!

"You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately. Depart I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

-Cromwell to rump Parliament.

James99, the SL has been too corrupt for too long, 4 or 5 centuries; indeed one could argue prolong prolonged the SL since people knew they had more time and could hope for changes for the better, that it might have been changed dramatically if the reformers had been more desperate and pressed for time.

So what good has the SL done in the last couple centuries?

Any textev?

RFC has posted how the creation of the OFS ~500 years ago was a signal of how corrupt the SL had already become, because the potential for abusing the OFS was so great.

Given the volume of the shells and the protectorates, most current members could easily be victims of the SL earlier, indeed we have textev that some shell nations have only been kept in line because of BF's huge fleet of SD's.

Given the sacrifice of roughly a century of their lives and careers to try to reform the SL the sorrow of all those Beowulfers is understandable, but they know they're finally doing the right thing.

The fact the SL has been deliberately partial to the 'old league' in its economic policies at the shells expense for centuries is just one more reason the shells will run as soon as the BF's confirmed destroyed.

The mandarins know its a corrupt house of cards, that their control will begin collapsing as soon as news of their defeats fully reaches the shells and protectorates, that their lies will be exposed, but they think its too big to fail though that may be changing.

After almost a thousand years it's time to finally drive a stake through this werewolf/zombie etc, cut off its head and burn the body to cinders.

L

stewart wrote:

james99 wrote:No system that has lived and grown as the Solar League can be a totally negative system. Even Beowulf has been a member for hundreds of years. Granted many worlds have been ill treated and many have rebelled to be free but no system has been run by angels including Haven and Manticore. I do have a lot of sadness for the breakup of the Solar League.

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That's essentially the thoughts of Honor's Uncle Jacques B-R y C about the League; and likely the feeling of many in the Core. But that's what is also likely to be the basis of the "rump" League post-conflict.
They will have the history of the old League but will need to learn to see the other sectors as equals. That is NOT the case now.

-- Stewart

I agree with the semtiments being posted here.

But we do need to sober up. What replaces the League will not be sweetness and light. Warlordism. Pocket empires locked in rivalry. Perpetual war as old grudges are settled and replaced by new ones.

The League did keep the peace and allow billions to flourish whatever its obvious faults. That doesn't mean that it can be allowed to go on as is. But it does mean that we need a sober awareness of the consequences.

Don

n7axw wrote:I agree with the semtiments being posted here.

But we do need to sober up. What replaces the League will not be sweetness and light. Warlordism. Pocket empires locked in rivalry. Perpetual war as old grudges are settled and replaced by new ones.

The League did keep the peace and allow billions to flourish whatever its obvious faults. That doesn't mean that it can be allowed to go on as is. But it does mean that we need a sober awareness of the consequences.

Don

Well put, Don. I contrast it to the Ottoman and to some extent, the Soviet Empires, in that they were unwieldly constructs from the beginning and once the ruthlessness in establishing them went away, it only took a tap (albeit in the Ottoman's case the tap was WW I) to break them apart.

And given that a large amount of unrest in the world at this time comes from those areas and the types of governments' that have taken over in those regions, your point is well-taken.

And it will be even worse in the Verge, where the OFS has pretty well denuded systems of any type of representative government, which means the 'revolutionaries' will decide who rules (them, of course--see Castro, Fidel for reference). Yeah, some (like Mobius) will manage well enough...but many won't.

I think the SEM/GA will 'encourage' systems to break off and establish representative forms of government, might even establish favorable trade agreements based on level of freedom for the citizens (which, come to think about it, never stopped Manticore from trading in Silesia...).

Interesting times, indeed.

I have had a great deal of fun with this topic. The real elephant in the room is MA or MAN. Next to Torch is a wormhole. There are at least two exits/entrances or channels. The reader knows from the Torch of Freedom what happened at one of them. I wonder if a super dreadnought with even more powerful armor or possibly several could make it through. I am actually thinking of something armored like a mobile fort.

I think that if the Solar League begins to crumble under the attacks by Manticore-Haven Alliance, the revolt by Maya Sector and the attacks by the MAN a number of planets are going to strike out for themselves especially in the core. The transtellars are going to try to snatch sectors for themselves. Once trade slows or stops there is going to be enormous suffering. A lot of planets are not going to be able to feed themselves.

james99 wrote:I have had a great deal of fun with this topic. The real elephant in the room is MA or MAN. Next to Torch is a wormhole. There are at least two exits/entrances or channels. The reader knows from the Torch of Freedom what happened at one of them. I wonder if a super dreadnought with even more powerful armor or possibly several could make it through. I am actually thinking of something armored like a mobile fort.

There is only one exit through the wormhole at Torch, not two. The old rumors had said at least two, and the Manticoran researchers were surprised to find it was only one. Of course, that one takes you to the Twins, and thence to Felix, which has 4 termini.

It is almost certain that the Alignment has upgraded the defenses at the Twins. The fleet there was a makeshift operation; they hadn't had time to put in permanent defenses. It is suicide to try to send ships through a defended wormhole. See David's discussions of this in the FAQ (read the second, third, and fourth questions)
http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:3

(Remember also that no one has any reason to suspect there is anything on the other side of the Torch wormhole except a killer wormhole.)

n7axw wrote:I agree with the semtiments being posted here.

But we do need to sober up. What replaces the League will not be sweetness and light. Warlordism. Pocket empires locked in rivalry. Perpetual war as old grudges are settled and replaced by new ones.

The League did keep the peace and allow billions to flourish whatever its obvious faults. That doesn't mean that it can be allowed to go on as is. But it does mean that we need a sober awareness of the consequences.

Don

IIRC that somewhere (it may have been background info in one of the anthologies) where the line that a thousand years of peace in the galaxy was drawing to a close and that a period of intense conflict was about to commence. Does anyone remember exactly where that was? It would seem to describe RFC's position on this matter.

james99 wrote:I think that if the Solar League begins to crumble under the attacks by Manticore-Haven Alliance, the revolt by Maya Sector and the attacks by the MAN a number of planets are going to strike out for themselves especially in the core. The transtellars are going to try to snatch sectors for themselves. Once trade slows or stops there is going to be enormous suffering. A lot of planets are not going to be able to feed themselves.

RFC is quoted as saying that all* of the planets are able to feed themselves. The coming economic collapse will ensure that trillions of people suffer economically, but it won't mean that systems won't be able to produce enough food to feed themselves.

But there is definitely going to be a lot of economic suffering. Not even the SEM is going to be able to alleviate most of it (for one thing, the SL dollar/credit/currency is soon going to be worthless. So what would the rebelling systems use for currency?). The warlordism and fighting that is going to erupt is going to make all wars previously seem like pikers. There will likely be a number of Erdindi(?) Edict violations, if only by accident, or intentional by some -very- pissed off people who don't care of the consequences. Given the thousands of systems and worlds, the thought that some won't be nuked or hit with kinetic bombardment is.. silly. There is also likely to be some very ugly forms of government popping up, like some 'Republics' empires, kingdoms or whatnot. Including several that will probably call themselves the Solarian League.


* this doesn't count systems with very marginal ecosystems on planets or systems with no habitable planets at all.

n7axw wrote:I agree with the semtiments being posted here.

But we do need to sober up. What replaces the League will not be sweetness and light. Warlordism. Pocket empires locked in rivalry. Perpetual war as old grudges are settled and replaced by new ones.

The League did keep the peace and allow billions to flourish whatever its obvious faults. That doesn't mean that it can be allowed to go on as is. But it does mean that we need a sober awareness of the consequences.

Don

There is, at least, in this case the Grand Alliance - for this purpose, including Erewhon, Torch, Maya Sector, and likely a lot of other small star nations out there - with a serious trade and political interest in arranging things so that states have stable borders and trade isn't terribly upset by piracy.

It's definitely not going to be a bright shining era of peace and light, and if the MA remains around to stir stuff up - or if the Andermani get too frisky to bite off unwilling bits - it's going to be a lot worse.

But there is still that powerful coalition among the SEM, the Republic of Haven, and like-minded powers that has the interest and some ability to nudge things into a more peaceful arrangement.

For the old, core, long-term Solarian worlds, there's the expectation of peace and good order, and what grudges they hold are going to run headlong into the wall of Grand Alliance disinterest in warlordism and all their neighbors having plenty of interest in setting back up some sort of peaceful modus vivendi. Is that going to be a brick wall or a pillow wall? Too soon to say. But it's going to offer some resistance, and maybe enough.

For places that have "enjoyed" only the costs of the Solarian League without its benefits (or the benefits of sheer time and exposure to developed economies - frankly, that's about all the League's offered) - the chance to get some of their own back may have a lot of appeal. On the other hand, they may not have anything much to support getting their own back. Angry Somali gangsters are not about to create an empire spanning all of east Africa, and here we've got the GA eagerly looking to treat all those worlds like the Talbott Cluster or occupied Meyers. Looking at outright annexation under SEM terms, the Talbott Cluster was very happy, apart from a few crackpots; looking at a local administration subordinate to a light-handed but massively superior metropole, Meyers' government was cordial and obliging.

The rest of the SL is likely to get a third treatment - sponsored and encouraged independent multistellar states - but that's a lot like Talbott only with a treaty relationship with the SEM, Haven, and all the like-minded others instead of the imperial relationship with Manticore. Trying to get Talbotters to form a state with one another was certainly a trick, but clearly the SEM has practice with it by now, there, in Silesia, in Meyers - and with a rougher hand in Endicott and Monica, for that matter.

On the other hand - you'll be dealing with people who should be mightily grateful for being liberated from the damn League, like Meyers - and Meyers was a case where the League had not even been that bad, by comparison. That gratitude should buy a lot of tolerance and patience for setting up better, more responsive smaller interstellar governments.