The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

Weird Harold wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:On the other, Visigoth, as a Beowulf colony, is presumably friendly to Beowulf (as far as anyone outside the onion knows - including almost all of Visigoth itself...) and by extension possibly Manticore, so going through there will put them on the spot when it comes to behaving like a good and loyal part of the League - which may not be in the interests of Manticore right now.

Visigoth is a Member of the Renaissance Factor:

Yes. We know that, but Admiral Gold Peak certainly does not, so if we're making guesses about her moves, we can't base them on that, though the SDF projection is something that could factor into her thinking.

That implies that Visigoth has a significant SDF of better quality than the SLN. Both as a Loyal Member of the Solarian League and as Incipient Evil Overlords it would suit their agenda to trash the "Invading Manties" trying to attack through their wormhole.

Of course, Visigoth might choose to use the RMN's presence to declare neutrality and secede from the SL in accordance with the long term plans for the Renaissance Factor. That choice would certainly involve less wear and tear on their SDF, and avoid immediate antipathy from the SEM/GA.

It could, yes. And it'd help the SL crumble, although that would probably be a bit of improvisation on the basis of the Plan rather than exact compliance with it on their part.

I'd just been trying to think like Mike there; you're moving on to thinking like Visigoth in response. Although... either way of transiting, it'll be over before any response from Visigoth's planetary government, or its secret masters, would have time to get from the wormhole and back, if 10th Fleet does not telegraph the move well beforehand. So it'd come down to the initiative of the people on the scene, or contingency orders they'd been given before by the system government.

JeffEngel wrote:I'd just been trying to think like Mike there; you're moving on to thinking like Visigoth in response. Although... either way of transiting, it'll be over before any response from Visigoth's planetary government, or its secret masters, would have time to get from the wormhole and back, if 10th Fleet does not telegraph the move well beforehand. So it'd come down to the initiative of the people on the scene, or contingency orders they'd been given before by the system government.

A lot depends on whether anyone transited the Wormhole when the mystery task force arrived -- we still don't know for sure that it 10th Fleet.

If I had a significant SDF and a wormhole, I'd deploy a rather permanent fraction of my SDF around the wormhole. After being notified of a hostile fleet taking the other end of the wormhole, I'd alert another fraction of my SDF and but the duty ship/squadron on high alert within energy range of the terminus.

Adm Gold Peak should know about Visigoth's SDF either from previous intel, or from Mesan sources. Even without knowing of the Renaissance Factor, she has to weigh the two options I outlined above -- I can't think of any other response Visigoth might have, except they might not secede immediately which would make no difference to 10th Fleet either way.

I would assume that passages of fleets through wormholes in peacetime are normal, like passages of fleets through sea straights and channels are normal today. Of course peacetime is a somewhat rosy view of the situation as of CoG.
Also fleet units should be stationed near a wormhole terminus. But I doubt, that they are within knife range. It would cause undue wear and tear on the crew and the ship to keep them there, because they would have to be battle ready all the time or they would be dead meat if a hostile fleet arrives. If they are stationed near (but not right at) the terminus, they would have time to get ready before a hostile fleet comes into weapons range. Of course some fleet units might be right at the terminus and ready for action (similar to the single junction fort in Manticore, that is on standby) but that might not be enough to stop the 10th fleet, before they can get into hyper. Of course a "neutral merchantman" coming from Visgoth could give Gold Peak good intelligence about which battle ready fleet units are waiting on the other side of the wormhole.
On more question. Do we have cannon on how far away from a wormhole you have to be before you can engage the hyper drive?

Based on the previous half-dozen posts, I'd like to clarify that under Lacoon II, I postulated that the Visigoth wormhole, being only 60LY from Beowulf, has already been closed to SL traffic (either by GA action or by the 'Goths own actions in response to the 'offscreen' actions against Beowulf), based on the timelines.

Obviously, if the Visigoth end cannot be confirmed as 'friendly' by Mike, she has a long haul back to Talbot.

Still, if Lacoon II has been in action for several months by then, I just can't see them leaving Visigoth alone....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

So far we have not seen SEM move against the Visigoth wormhole. I would have thought that would have come up considering that closing it to Slaver traffic would have been as much a priority as keeping SL shipping from using it.
I can't imagine the RMN taking one end (the Visigoth end by conventional means comming though hyperspace) and not doing a physical inspection of EVERY ship that had tried to come from Mesa to Visigoth for evidence of Slaver activity.
There is also the not inconsiderable challange that when Mesa (and the Alignment) discovered that RMN had control of the Visigoth end of that wormhole, that it would have been all over the Mesa news nets….inquiring minds would have wanted to know and it might just have been a major news story that should have made it into CoG? "Please be advised- naval forces of the Manticoreian Empire have siezed control of the Visigoth wormhole and this is a war warning. It is expected that, should those forces enter the Mesan system, things will get ugly for anyone involved with Genetic Slavery and you should take whatever actions you deem nessisary to protect your lives."

(PS, the price of any spot- on a hyper-capable ship capable of leaving they system is $1,000,000,000 Solarian Credits and increasing fast)

Hutch wrote:Based on the previous half-dozen posts, I'd like to clarify that under Lacoon II, I postulated that the Visigoth wormhole, being only 60LY from Beowulf, has already been closed to SL traffic (either by GA action or by the 'Goths own actions in response to the 'offscreen' actions against Beowulf), based on the timelines.

Obviously, if the Visigoth end cannot be confirmed as 'friendly' by Mike, she has a long haul back to Talbot.

Still, if Lacoon II has been in action for several months by then, I just can't see them leaving Visigoth alone....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Uhm. Visgoth is in the SL core I thought? Pretty sure.

Either case 60LY from Beowulf would still be SL space as that would be at best 120LY from Sol. Beo-->Sol = 60LY(1week)

I would not consider Visgoth held by GA forces and likewise would not consider Visgoth WHJ to be closed voluntarily to SL traffic either.

Relax wrote:

Hutch wrote:Based on the previous half-dozen posts, I'd like to clarify that under Lacoon II, I postulated that the Visigoth wormhole, being only 60LY from Beowulf, has already been closed to SL traffic (either by GA action or by the 'Goths own actions in response to the 'offscreen' actions against Beowulf), based on the timelines.

Obviously, if the Visigoth end cannot be confirmed as 'friendly' by Mike, she has a long haul back to Talbot.

Still, if Lacoon II has been in action for several months by then, I just can't see them leaving Visigoth alone....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Uhm. Visgoth is in the SL core I thought? Pretty sure.

Either case 60LY from Beowulf would still be SL space as that would be at best 120LY from Sol. Beo-->Sol = 60LY(1week)

I would not consider Visgoth held by GA forces and likewise would not consider Visgoth WHJ to be closed voluntarily to SL traffic either.

It's curious either way - that we would not have heard by now about Laocoon II seizing either or both ends of that wormhole (it's not terribly far from RMN/allied-held termini at either end), or about it being an exception to Laocoon II.

Considerinf that Lacoon II was the military siezure of all wormhole terminus and junctions in known space, especially the ones on the north side of the SL (and it is only 60 light years from Beowulf), for the Visagoth wormhole to not be in GA hands would be very unusual.

Hutch wrote:Based on the previous half-dozen posts, I'd like to clarify that under Lacoon II, I postulated that the Visigoth wormhole, being only 60LY from Beowulf, has already been closed to SL traffic (either by GA action or by the 'Goths own actions in response to the 'offscreen' actions against Beowulf), based on the timelines.

Obviously, if the Visigoth end cannot be confirmed as 'friendly' by Mike, she has a long haul back to Talbot.

Still, if Lacoon II has been in action for several months by then, I just can't see them leaving Visigoth alone....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Always assuming she goes back to Talbott, and doesn't just keep snagging outlying sectors. But she'll be tied up at Mesa for a while--if that was her arrival in CoG, and not the Andies.

Relax wrote:Uhm. Visgoth is in the SL core I thought? Pretty sure.

Either case 60LY from Beowulf would still be SL space as that would be at best 120LY from Sol. Beo-->Sol = 60LY(1week)

I would not consider Visgoth held by GA forces and likewise would not consider Visgoth WHJ to be closed voluntarily to SL traffic either.

This is extraordinarily vague,even for RFC. In previous posts, RFC seemed to indicate that the League had been frustrated in its attempts to locate wormholes in the Core Worlds area; the Erewhonese League terminus is somewhere in the shell or the Verge, Yildun is a corporate/independent system too well connected to grab, but there isn't a clue as to where it is. Visigoth is well away from Old Earth, on the edge of the approximate 100LY radius that was supposed to be a rough limit to Solarian Core systems; so it is either a Shell system or a Verge system in an alliance. Like Erewhon had been before it switched its dependence to the Manticore Alliance.

One reason to leave it alone is its fierce antagonism to the slave trade--they may already deny slave vessels passage through the wormhole. Another is the relation to Beowulf; another might be that it had a sufficiently strong SDF that Manticore didn't want to run up a local-system (as opposed to SLN) casualty count.

If Visigoth opposed sanctions against Beowulf, the GA may hope to get them as an ally, so seizing the wormhole may have been counterproductive.

Zakharra wrote:Considering that Lacoon II was the military siezure of all wormhole terminus and junctions in known space, especially the ones on the north side of the SL (and it is only 60 light years from Beowulf), for the Visagoth wormhole to not be in GA hands would be very unusual.

Lacoön II was the seizure of all Sollie wormholes the RMN could reach; Visigoth may have been left out because it was either too well defended (not by the SLN) or for other political reasons. Like not seizing Erewhon (defensive treaty w/Haven, among other reasons). Visigoth apparently shared a lot of Beowulf's attitude against Mesa, and had mutual transit-trade agreements with both Beowulf and Manticore. Invade and you make an enemy; wait, and you may have a valuable ally and trading partner. Closing all the other wormholes shuts down the shipping lanes well enough without it.

as Hutch said, YMMV

Rob
corrected a couple errors

Zakharra wrote:Considerinf that Lacoon II was the military siezure of all wormhole terminus and junctions in known space, especially the ones on the north side of the SL (and it is only 60 light years from Beowulf), for the Visagoth wormhole to not be in GA hands would be very unusual.

If I recall correctly they used the qualifier "within reach". It's possible for strategic / political reasons the Visagoth wormhole was considered out of reach at the time the rest of the termini were seized.

Yep, here's the quote.

Mission of Honor: Chapter 26 wrote:that was the first phase of Lacoön. The second phase included active commerce raiding and the extension of de facto Manticoran control to every wormhole nexus within its reach, regardless of who that nexus nominally belonged to.