Sonja Hemphill

cthia wrote:That is exactly my niece's point.

Remember, the older college students were trying to browbeat my 12-yr-old niece for not wanting to place Hamish so high on her list. And my niece became exasperated with them.

When I asked her why she thought so little of Hamish's skills, she explained it to me at point-blank range.

What stuck out so brightly was her notion that "Hamish should not be given Apollo to finish his drive towards Noveau Paris, because he can never truly appreciate Apollo. Honor should do it!"

It made sense to me. She said she'd rather have Alice Truman if Honor wasn't available.

I'm still a little confused. Hamish's drive on Haven was about 7 years before Apollo was invented. He couldn't have been given Apollo to finish his drive because it didn't exist.

In fact we never got to see how good a tactician he might (or might not) be in the era of podlaying MDM combat. While he was serving the GA had a monopoly on that and everybody else in the galaxy was hopelessly outclassed and you don't need any particular tactical acumen to win when you can hit harder than anybody else and do so from beyond their weapons range. But by the time podlayers went to war against each other he was already out of the navy; and so never led MDM equipped SD(P)s against similarly equipped enemy ships.


Then by the time Apollo did exist Hamish was already retired from the navy and serving as the civilian First Lord of the Admiralty -- so not only was Hamish not leading a drive towards Noveau Paris he wasn't even in the navy anymore; and so couldn't take over the Apollo equipped 8th from from Honor even if he'd wanted to. (Nor was Manticore in a position at that time for anybody to try to make a drive towards the Republic's capital)


So I'm confused as to what your niece was saying - because "Hamish should not be given Apollo to finish his drive towards Noveau Paris, because he can never truly appreciate Apollo." seem to significantly confuse the timeline.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:That is exactly my niece's point.

Remember, the older college students were trying to browbeat my 12-yr-old niece for not wanting to place Hamish so high on her list. And my niece became exasperated with them.

When I asked her why she thought so little of Hamish's skills, she explained it to me at point-blank range.

What stuck out so brightly was her notion that "Hamish should not be given Apollo to finish his drive towards Noveau Paris, because he can never truly appreciate Apollo. Honor should do it!"

It made sense to me. She said she'd rather have Alice Truman if Honor wasn't available.

I'm still a little confused. Hamish's drive on Haven was about 7 years before Apollo was invented. He couldn't have been given Apollo to finish his drive because it didn't exist.

In fact we never got to see how good a tactician he might (or might not) be in the era of podlaying MDM combat. While he was serving the GA had a monopoly on that and everybody else in the galaxy was hopelessly outclassed and you don't need any particular tactical acumen to win when you can hit harder than anybody else and do so from beyond their weapons range. But by the time podlayers went to war against each other he was already out of the navy; and so never led MDM equipped SD(P)s against similarly equipped enemy ships.


Then by the time Apollo did exist Hamish was already retired from the navy and serving as the civilian First Lord of the Admiralty -- so not only was Hamish not leading a drive towards Noveau Paris he wasn't even in the navy anymore; and so couldn't take over the Apollo equipped 8th from from Honor even if he'd wanted to. (Nor was Manticore in a position at that time for anybody to try to make a drive towards the Republic's capital)


So I'm confused as to what your niece was saying - because "Hamish should not be given Apollo to finish his drive towards Noveau Paris, because he can never truly appreciate Apollo." seem to significantly confuse the timeline.

I can't seem to make this clear. It is simply a hypothetical situation that my niece used to cast aspersions on Hamish's abilities by pointing out that he should not have been trusted with Apollo to finish his drive on Noveau Paris even if Apollo had become available.

My niece and I both expected that Hamish may be reactivated and tapped to complete his drive on Noveau Paris during storyline. Why not reactivate him to finish what he started? Wrong!

You mean you didn't expect Beth to order the RMN to finish what it started after Apollo proved to be so decisive?

An attack from the SLN notwithstanding, didn't you think that attacking Noveau Paris is exactly what would have happened if Eloise didn't offer an Alliance before Apollo was fully distributed?

Or they could give the job of hitting Haven to Honor, as she's more experienced with the new weapons, vs a guy who's not had experience with podlayer-with-MDM opponents, although smart.
She's
-The main character
- had experience with Havenite podlayers with MDMs

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Or they could give the job of hitting Haven to Honor, as she's more experienced with the new weapons, vs a guy who's not had experience with podlayer-with-MDM opponents, although smart.
She's
-The main character
- had experience with Havenite podlayers with MDMs

As far as my niece and I are concerned, we thought Hamish would be given the courtesy(?) of being offered to complete what he started years prior.

It is the same notion that exists on the gridiron when your premiere running back drives you 99 yards down the field to the other team's goal line. Then the quarterback calls a keeper and runs the ball in himself, finishing the "drive" and hogging all of the glory for the score.

But of course, we agree that Honor would be the best choice. In fact, as far as how I was willing to spend my two centicredits at the time, I thought Honor should have been the one tapped to take on Trevor's Star.

I know people say she wasn't ready by then, but I say "Off with their heads!"

cthia wrote:As far as my niece and I are concerned, we thought Hamish would be given the courtesy(?) of being offered to complete what he started years prior.

It is the same notion that exists on the gridiron when your premiere running back drives you 99 yards down the field to the other team's goal line. Then the quarterback calls a keeper and runs the ball in himself, finishing the "drive" and hogging all of the glory for the score.

So if the analogy fits, then it would be Honor doing the heavy-lifting of defeating the RHN, then turning over command to Hamish to demand the surrender. I don't think it would ever happen, but if it did, would it be disastrous?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:As far as my niece and I are concerned, we thought Hamish would be given the courtesy(?) of being offered to complete what he started years prior.

It is the same notion that exists on the gridiron when your premiere running back drives you 99 yards down the field to the other team's goal line. Then the quarterback calls a keeper and runs the ball in himself, finishing the "drive" and hogging all of the glory for the score.

So if the analogy fits, then it would be Honor doing the heavy-lifting of defeating the RHN, then turning over command to Hamish to demand the surrender. I don't think it would ever happen, but if it did, would it be disastrous?

Nope, by then Honor makes the team as quarterback. Hamish is the running back who ran the ball all the way to the goal line. Then Honor would be given Apollo to score the win. On the gridiron many will think 'that's not fair!'

cthia wrote:Nope, by then Honor makes the team as quarterback. Hamish is the running back who ran the ball all the way to the goal line. Then Honor would be given Apollo to score the win. On the gridiron many will think 'that's not fair!'

I don't know that we're talking about the same thing. It's still not clear if you're talking about Apollo being available at the end of the first war or if you're talking about giving Hamish the courtesy of finishing the second war. I was talking about the second, in which case Honor had already done all the heavy-lifting.

Apollo at the end of the first war makes no sense. First, it doesn't change Operation Hassan, meaning that High Ridge still gains power and still accepts OSJ's cease-fire. The long-term effects of that would have been that High Ridge feels even more secure in drawing down the RMN, with disastrous consequences. Second, there would be no one with experience with it to give them to, so why in the galaxy would the RMN not give them to Hamish? While we may agree that he's not as good as Honor, in 1914 who else could step up?

cthia wrote:Nope, by then Honor makes the team as quarterback. Hamish is the running back who ran the ball all the way to the goal line. Then Honor would be given Apollo to score the win. On the gridiron many will think 'that's not fair!'

That is a terrible analogy; Hamish was the previous quarterback (never a running back) in a game that was ended because of lightning. Now that Honor is quarterback, he is the general manager and years out of playing the game.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Nope, by then Honor makes the team as quarterback. Hamish is the running back who ran the ball all the way to the goal line. Then Honor would be given Apollo to score the win. On the gridiron many will think 'that's not fair!'

That is a terrible analogy; Hamish was the previous quarterback (never a running back) in a game that was ended because of lightning. Now that Honor is quarterback, he is the general manager and years out of playing the game.

You have to follow along with the argument and context from beginning to end. As far as my niece and I are concerned, Hamish was never the quarterback. He was just a top draft pick on the gridiron who the Admiralty gave the ball to at that time. Honor was always the quarterback in the entire series, as far as my niece and I are concerned. Although my niece stated that she didn't think Honor was prepared for McQueen at that time. I disagree with her AND the masses.

At any rate, at the time Apollo came to fruition, if Hamish had been reactivated to carry out the attack on Noveau Paris, he would have been simply a running back. After all, we were deep into the Honorverse at that time of the series.

Honor had definitely become the M V P by then.

cthia wrote:You have to follow along with the argument and context from beginning to end. As far as my niece and I are concerned, Hamish was never the quarterback. He was just a top draft pick on the gridiron who the Admiralty gave the ball to at that time. Honor was always the quarterback in the entire series, as far as my niece and I are concerned. Although my niece stated that she didn't think Honor was prepared for McQueen at that time. I disagree with her AND the masses.

At the time Apollo came to fruition, if Hamish had been reactivated to carry out the attack on Noveau Paris, he would have been simply a running back. After all, we were deep into the Honorverse at that time of the series.

It is still a terrible analogy. Yes, Honor is the main protagonist; but in US football terms she is just one quarterback amid a number of games that are going on simultaneously. She is not even a first string quarterback until she comes back from Cerebus. Hamish was first string until he was moved upstairs and at that point, after her victory over Tourville at the Sidemore Republic in the Marsh System; Honor took over the top position.

Of course you (and your niece) are free to think whatever you want. The point is that she is the lead character in the books, but she is not the lead character in the Navy until she is given Eighth.