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The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign

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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:11 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Found it, here's where RFC has already hinted that both sides of the Torch wormhole are likely seeing some action:

http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3107&hilit=torch+wormhole+rfc&start=60#p68433

--snipping--
runsforcelery wrote:Nope. If the SEM and its buddies do decide that this wormhole Leads Somewhere Ominous (and, trust me, their analysts are considering that very attentively, given the circumstances), the best thing they could possibly do from the MA's perspective would be to try to take it away from them by coming through the wormhole at them with no idea of where the other end lies in normal-space terms. And please do note that if I haven't told you what Torch is doing about its end of the warp bridge, I also haven't told you anything about what the other side's done since Harvest Joy failed to report back. You think maybe they've been, um, bolstering their defenses, perhaps?

Just asking, you understand.
(bolding, etc. mine)



Thanks for posting that link, Sharkhunter. I think that conclusively rules out wormhole assaults.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by StealthSeeker   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:15 pm

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I have a simple question to pose, requesting feed back and ideas, about what actions the RMN should take in the SL. I choose to pose the question by borrowing from the character “Daud.” I will follow with quotes from the books and my own reasoning at to what actions should be taken.

“What are the currently known and available targets in the SL that are on the firing range?”


SoF:Ch29(Admiral Michelle Henke) wrote:
“What we face is a war against the largest, most populous, most powerful star nation in history. Not a confrontation, not a conflict, not a crisis. Not any longer. A war. And wars, as we've discovered against the People's Republic of Haven, aren't won by standing on the defensive. At the moment, we enjoy a crushing combat advantage. How long that advantage will last is impossible to estimate, and it seems evident to me that it's our duty to our Empire and our Empress to use that advantage as decisively as possible and as quickly as possible. And it is also this fleet's specific responsibility to safeguard the star systems and the citizens of the Talbott Quadrant. The best way to do both of those things, in my opinion, is to take the war to the Sollies. We didn't start it, they did, and now they can deal with the consequences of their own actions.”



SFTS:Ch44 (Honor Harrington) wrote:
"So if we get into an all-out war with the League, our strategy is going to have to have a very definite political element. We'll have to make it clear that the war wasn't our idea. We'll have to drive home the notion that we're not after any sort of punitive peace, that we're not trying to annex any additional territory, that we have no desire to conduct reprisals against people who don't want to fight us. We need to tell them, every step of the way, that what we really want is a negotiated settlement . . . and at the same time, we have to hit the League as a whole so hard that the fracture lines already there under the surface open right up. We have to split the League into separate sectors, into successor states, none of which have the sheer size and concentrated industrial power and manpower of the present league. Successor states that are our own size, or smaller. And we have to negotiate bilateral peace treaties with each of those successor states as they declare their willingness to opt out of the general conflict to get us to stop beating on their heads. And once we have those peace treaties, we have to not only honor them, but step beyond them. We need to use trade incentives, mutual defense pacts, educational assistance, every single thing we can think of to show them that we are—and to really be, not just pretend to be—the sort of neighbor and ally they'll want around. In other words, once we break the League militarily, once we splinter it into multiple, mutually independent star nations, we have to see to it that none of those star nations have any motive to fuse themselves back together and gang up on us all over again."



With these thoughts in mind, I say that the RMN can not just capture wormhole termini. That's a mostly passive kind of an attack on undefended points in the SL. It doesn't do anything to reduce the SL's ability to counter attack, it only slows down their transit times in bringing together ships and committing any attack they choose to make. It does not stop them in any way or further reduce the SL's ability to make war. If that is all the further that RMN intends to go in their attacks on the SL, then the SL will have time to engineer their way to creating a fleet of ships that can defeat the GA.

I am in agreement with Admiral Henke, the RMN must take the initiative by attacking the SL as fast and as hard as possible to reduce the fighting ability of the SLN before they can maneuver their way into an effective counter attack. I must destroy or disable as many of the ships available to the SLN as I possibly can while the RMN technology advantage still holds. The best way to get at as many ships and hulls as possible, while killing as few people as possible, is to attack the mothballed fleets and the ships defending them.

The SL, regardless of how many total ships they have, don't have them gathered together in one spot. For the volume of space that they are defending, their ships are spread out rather sparsely. The RMN needs to use the wormholes to engage these far flung groups of ships and take them down in detail before they can be gathered together in any significant numbers. If the RMN can catch them in groups of a couple of SD's and associated supporting ships, take out the larger ships and leave only the smallest ships to pick up survivors of the battle. But even those smaller ships should be required to empty their missile magazines by firing them into the sun. (anywhere but at the RMN) Ships of the support train of the SLN that haul supplies or make repairs need to be disabled or captured. If the fleet can't be supplied, it can't fight.

However, the political thing also needs to be addressed in that if I do go into a system to destroy SLN ships, I must refrain from destroying anything that is not of military origin. Do not destroy planet orbitals that are used for commerce. Leave the planet's governments untouched. Make it very clear that only SLN equipment will be destroyed because it is a threat to the RMN. And make it equally clear that the GA would be interested in peaceful relations with anyone not participating in the Mandarin's war with the GA. Always stress that it is the “Mandarin's” and their unjust war that is being opposed, not the people of the SL. Do not seek out planets with SDF forces, leave them alone unless they attack fist or join the SLN in battle.

If the Mandarin's can be successfully blamed for what the members of the SL are suffering, it should create very large cracks in the SL. Beowulf was settled first and it then settled “satalite” planets. This is a pattern that most likely occurred repeatedly and maybe these “groups” will each form small star empires that will split off from the SL and be mutually supportive of each other in self defense.

But the RMN must attack! So if it's not the ships of the SLN and it's mothballed fleet, what other targets are on the firing range?
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:51 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:But the RMN must attack! So if it's not the ships of the SLN and it's mothballed fleet, what other targets are on the firing range?

Frontier Fleet bases, OFS command nodes, Gendarmerie camps, for more relevant official League targets. Publicly shackling the jackboots ready to fall on any protectorate system that felt like making an independent way of it again could make for some very satisfying political changes out there.

There are likely planets, companies, and stations with connections to Mesan transtellars that have been too close to "respectable" League governments - those "moderate" ones who may raise their noses about unwashed slaves having something to do with occupying Mesa - that have been in practice immune to retaliation for their participation in the slave trade. I am very happy to think that they may no longer enjoy that protection.

But I would not underestimate what the GA has done to the League already. It's funded on by things that wouldn't bother member systems: trade duties and protectorate "service fees". That's nearly it. And the trade duties have pretty much gone up in smoke now, with the protectorate extortion racket going right along behind. It's a government without income, without authority to raise it on another basis, losing the confidence (and/or fear) of those from whom it would get that authority or that alternate income.

The only thing that could save it, really, would be members with an interest in continuing it on a different basis. That could happen, but the combination of that with the same or similar leadership and the same or similar policies - which led to precisely this embarrassing mess - is totally implausible. And the outside pressure to make sure that it reforms as very different and individually smaller states is pertinent and insistent, with the League in no current condition to resist.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:23 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:With these thoughts in mind, I say that the RMN can not just capture wormhole termini. That's a mostly passive kind of an attack on undefended points in the SL. It doesn't do anything to reduce the SL's ability to counter attack, it only slows down their transit times in bringing together ships and committing any attack they choose to make. It does not stop them in any way or further reduce the SL's ability to make war. If that is all the further that RMN intends to go in their attacks on the SL, then the SL will have time to engineer their way to creating a fleet of ships that can defeat the GA.


Lacoon II also includes a commerce raiding element; the essential strategy is to disrupt the League economy which WILL "reduce the SL's ability to make war." More importantly, Lacoon I&II and Adm Gold Peak's bloodless conquest of Meyers do more to harm the Solarian League than it does League members -- The Mandarins and League Government gets its income from interstellar commerce and "protectorate fees." Shutting down League Commerce and liberating Protectorates will eventually shut down the League government -- or force them into alienating league more members by trying to divert the effects of commerce raiding onto member systems.

Directly attacking core and shell systems would be counter-productive; even if the have significant fleet bases or reserve fleet components. The Mandarin's response to Beowulf's secession will go a long way towards encouraging Core and Shell League Members to secede and make a separate peace with the GA without direct military action by the GA.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by StealthSeeker   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:02 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:But the RMN must attack! So if it's not the ships of the SLN and it's mothballed fleet, what other targets are on the firing range?


Frontier Fleet bases, OFS command nodes, Gendarmerie camps, for more relevant official League targets. Publicly shackling the jackboots ready to fall on any protectorate system that felt like making an independent way of it again could make for some very satisfying political changes out there.

There are likely planets, companies, and stations with connections to Mesan transtellars that have been too close to "respectable" League governments - those "moderate" ones who may raise their noses about unwashed slaves having something to do with occupying Mesa - that have been in practice immune to retaliation for their participation in the slave trade. I am very happy to think that they may no longer enjoy that protection.


Would I be wrong to at least partially summarize your comments by saying that your “attack” would take advantage of the RMN's hold of the wormhole termini as a way of loosening the SL core world's hold on Verge systems? And then take down the Frontier Fleet rather than the core world's battle fleet? Where both actions would encourage these Verge star nations to become independent? All of which would deprive the SL government (Mandarins) of enough capital to maintain itself?

That all sounds good, but it still doesn't reduce the strength/numbers of Battle Fleet. It still doesn't prevent Battle Fleet (BF) from getting a lot of it's light units out of mothballs to send them out to initiate Admiral Kingsford's commerce raiding. I want to completely hamstring the BF so it is ineffective as anything other than a home defense fleet. I don't want it having enough ships to start any offensive actions.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:18 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:That all sounds good, but it still doesn't reduce the strength/numbers of Battle Fleet. It still doesn't prevent Battle Fleet (BF) from getting a lot of it's light units out of mothballs to send them out to initiate Admiral Kingsford's commerce raiding. I want to completely hamstring the BF so it is ineffective as anything other than a home defense fleet. I don't want it having enough ships to start any offensive actions.


Battle Fleet is irrelevant. They don't have many "smaller ships" because all of those are on active service with Frontier Fleet. I don't think there are many, if any, ships suitable for commerce raiding in "Mothballs."

Rather than waste fuel trying to destroy pockets of BF ships, the GA is better served to wait for BF to gather them together and bring them to a GA system for the GA to use as raw materials for building ships that are better than targets.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:32 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:That all sounds good, but it still doesn't reduce the strength/numbers of Battle Fleet. It still doesn't prevent Battle Fleet (BF) from getting a lot of it's light units out of mothballs to send them out to initiate Admiral Kingsford's commerce raiding. I want to completely hamstring the BF so it is ineffective as anything other than a home defense fleet. I don't want it having enough ships to start any offensive actions.


Battle Fleet is irrelevant. They don't have many "smaller ships" because all of those are on active service with Frontier Fleet. I don't think there are many, if any, ships suitable for commerce raiding in "Mothballs."

Rather than waste fuel trying to destroy pockets of BF ships, the GA is better served to wait for BF to gather them together and bring them to a GA system for the GA to use as raw materials for building ships that are better than targets.

That's kind of my though. And even the commerce raising is likely to be a disaster for the SLN. But the heavy battle fleet units are worthless against any of the GA; and aren't worth the cost to upgrade. They, and to only the slightest extent more, the Reserve are a major sunk cost without prospect of being upgraded to survivable units.

Yes the SLN will eventually close the tech gab (if allowed to survive) but whether or not it's current ships are around it'll have to build brand new ones to take advantage of modern MDM combat.

Now taking out the current BF crews might actually impact their future strength. But the GA already has tons of POWs it's not really set up for. Trying to scoop up, and transport back, any significant percentage of BF's total manning seems impractical. But the other option is to kill them; which justifiably should generate a huge backlash from the League's member worlds.

Sure, it elements of the SLN come your way, drive them off or compel their surrender. But don't bother trying to take out most of their old ships.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by StealthSeeker   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:34 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:With these thoughts in mind, I say that the RMN can not just capture wormhole termini. That's a mostly passive kind of an attack on undefended points in the SL. It doesn't do anything to reduce the SL's ability to counter attack, it only slows down their transit times in bringing together ships and committing any attack they choose to make. It does not stop them in any way or further reduce the SL's ability to make war. If that is all the further that RMN intends to go in their attacks on the SL, then the SL will have time to engineer their way to creating a fleet of ships that can defeat the GA.


Lacoon II also includes a commerce raiding element; the essential strategy is to disrupt the League economy which WILL "reduce the SL's ability to make war." More importantly, Lacoon I&II and Adm Gold Peak's bloodless conquest of Meyers do more to harm the Solarian League than it does League members -- The Mandarins and League Government gets its income from interstellar commerce and "protectorate fees." Shutting down League Commerce and liberating Protectorates will eventually shut down the League government -- or force them into alienating league more members by trying to divert the effects of commerce raiding onto member systems.


Ok, trying to turn a bunch of the Verge system into independent star nations can be very helpful. Maybe Meyers and the systems it controlled will become another Talbott quadrant type of system group. Though I don't know if Queen Elisabeth would necessarily want to add all those planets into the SEM. Though I bet that the SEM would more than welcome having the trade that these systems were sending to the core worlds.

Weird Harold wrote:Directly attacking core and shell systems would be counter-productive; even if the have significant fleet bases or reserve fleet components. The Mandarin's response to Beowulf's secession will go a long way towards encouraging Core and Shell League Members to secede and make a separate peace with the GA without direct military action by the GA.


There has got to be a more overt and effective way to "assist" in the demise of the core worlds cohesion. Beowulf is going to need to react to the attack by the SLN on it's world. What should that reaction be? How should they strike back?

Also, someone stated that if the MA wanted to stir things up, they could sneek attack core worlds while pointing the finger at the GA. Now if the GA/RMN should first attack a mothball fleet somewhere, being very selective about what they destroyed, and leave the planet alone, they could have that example of how they attack someone. So if a mysterious attack out of nowhere happens they can point and say "look, see there, that's how we do things, wasn't us that bombed your orbitals."
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by StealthSeeker   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:56 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Battle Fleet is irrelevant. They don't have many "smaller ships" because all of those are on active service with Frontier Fleet. I don't think there are many, if any, ships suitable for commerce raiding in "Mothballs."

Rather than waste fuel trying to destroy pockets of BF ships, the GA is better served to wait for BF to gather them together and bring them to a GA system for the GA to use as raw materials for building ships that are better than targets.


That's kind of my though. And even the commerce raising is likely to be a disaster for the SLN. But the heavy battle fleet units are worthless against any of the GA; and aren't worth the cost to upgrade. They, and to only the slightest extent more, the Reserve are a major sunk cost without prospect of being upgraded to survivable units.

Yes the SLN will eventually close the tech gab (if allowed to survive) but whether or not it's current ships are around it'll have to build brand new ones to take advantage of modern MDM combat.

Now taking out the current BF crews might actually impact their future strength. But the GA already has tons of POWs it's not really set up for. Trying to scoop up, and transport back, any significant percentage of BF's total manning seems impractical. But the other option is to kill them; which justifiably should generate a huge backlash from the League's member worlds.

Sure, it elements of the SLN come your way, drive them off or compel their surrender. But don't bother trying to take out most of their old ships.



My concept about commerce raiding is that you don't need the latest modern ships to do the job. Look at the pirates and what they use. Admiral Kingsford is just saying that the light units used in commerce raiding would be his most effective way to strike back. And I would say that the mothball fleets would have lots of smaller units, otherwise where would Mesa get all those BC's that they sent to Monica? The mothballed ships can't be just SD's.

I don't want the SLN ship's crews out there where they are doing damage and the GA has to figure out a way to handle a bunch more POWs. Killing all those crews, I would think, would have the core worlds more up in arms that if you destroyed them as empty hulls smothered in mothballs
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by kzt   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:58 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:And I would say that the mothball fleets would have lots of smaller units, otherwise where would Mesa get all those BC's that they sent to Monica? The mothballed ships can't be just SD's.



No, they don't. Not to the level you would expect.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/202/0

"The Reserve does also contain battlecruisers and cruisers as screening elements, but nowhere near what its ships-of-the-wall would require in the event of all out hostilities. The plan has always been for the Frontier Fleet's active units to provide the entire SLN's light forces requirements in such an unthinkable event, although there's been virtually no detailed planning for how all of that would be managed. ("We'll muddle through on the day" is sort of a hallmark of Solarian planning where any sort of real war is concerned. After all, they might as well be planning for how they'll defeat the ravening hordes from Andromeda as how they would defeat any significant short-term threat from anywhere in the explored galaxy.)"
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