Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:But how? If the GA fires from their own extreme ballistic range, which is well outside their already far greater powered missile range, then execute an optimal evasive maneuver - at the moment of SLN fire - that takes them far away as possible from their last position, how the heck does SLN missiles respond without benefit of recon, FTL info or decent sensors?

They'd be suffering from "Duh, which way did they go?"

Sure, as long as you can do it without the impeller drive or a high signature drive of some other type. Assume the missiles only have a 5 degree off of bore sight field of view. At a light minute, how far do you have to move to get out of the FoV?

And I suspect they have a wider FoV, particularly as a salvo.

cthia wrote:Dude, one thing isn't quite clear. Regions of my brain are thicker than normal. Are you saying that the SLN's multi stage missile is superior in design to a multi drive missile? Seems it's obviously a cheaper design - and relatedly quicker to mass produce, but besides that, are there any tactical advantages?

One is obviously that the RMN can more quickly space dust SLN ships, seeing(npi) that they wouldn't have to rely on a ballistic component. Any other tactical advantages?

Multi-stage has some significant drawbacks. It's implied that the final (I presume upper) stage is smaller in diameter than the main stage - that may in fact be a requirement to protect the 2nd stage drive ring from destruction. Certainly I'd expect physical separation of the drive rings to be necessary.

The smaller diameter seems to impose inherent limitations on the size of sensor and warhead you can put in a 2 stage missile.

Also if you need meters of physical separation to protect the drive rings from each other it's not really practical to go beyond 2 stages; so you're never going to match the continuously powered range (or terminal velocity) of a full up 3-drive MDM. (Much less a 4-drive system defense MDM)


Also they seem longer than an MDM, so you probably can't carry as many of them. And a staged design, with a cramped final stage, isn't very amenable to switching to microfusion power (if/when the SLN/MAlign invent or steal that tech). But without microfusion you don't have the power budget to run the kind of ECM (dazzlers and dragon's teeth) that the RMN can put on their DDMs/MDMs.


All in all I'd rate the Cataphract as a surprisingly innovative hack, but one with significantly less current or potential capability than a 'true' MDM. The 'baffle' greatly simplifies the design of very long range missiles.

Couple of questions. In another thread it was brought up a tactic of emplacing mines at a wormhole to prevent an enemy fleet from utilizing said wormhole. But wouldn't that prevent your own use? At least your own efficient use?

And would mine layers be a regular part of a fleet? Seems they'd have some sort of tactical use by resourceful Commanders who smell like fish, err smell something fishy.

cthia wrote:Couple of questions. In another thread it was brought up a tactic of emplacing mines at a wormhole to prevent an enemy fleet from utilizing said wormhole. But wouldn't that prevent your own use? At least your own efficient use?

You could build mines so that they stand down at a signal you blip at them whenever you're coming through, or twig on Identify-Friend-or-Foe (IFF) so they shoot bad guys and don't shoot others. (And cross your fingers that they are robust and clever enough to resist enemy wiles and sheer accident that way.)

You may be better off with the mines under the control of a nearby crewed unit, assuming you're not determined to have none of your people nearby. In effect, the mines are playing the role of pre-positioned missile pods, and there may not be much difference between the two.

And would mine layers be a regular part of a fleet? Seems they'd have some sort of tactical use by resourceful Commanders who smell like fish, err smell something fishy.

They've seemed to be things that tend to be sent and used in specific spots where mines will be laid and kept per longer-term plans, at least in the era of SVW and Hancock Station. Most fleets since seem to expect operations more mobile than routine use of mines would allow. (And they don't want to count on the opportunity to make sneaky, exceptional use of them.)

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:Couple of questions. In another thread it was brought up a tactic of emplacing mines at a wormhole to prevent an enemy fleet from utilizing said wormhole. But wouldn't that prevent your own use? At least your own efficient use?

You could build mines so that they stand down at a signal you blip at them whenever you're coming through, or twig on Identify-Friend-or-Foe (IFF) so they shoot bad guys and don't shoot others. (And cross your fingers that they are robust and clever enough to resist enemy wiles and sheer accident that way.)

You may be better off with the mines under the control of a nearby crewed unit, assuming you're not determined to have none of your people nearby. In effect, the mines are playing the role of pre-positioned missile pods, and there may not be much difference between the two.

And would mine layers be a regular part of a fleet? Seems they'd have some sort of tactical use by resourceful Commanders who smell like fish, err smell something fishy.

They've seemed to be things that tend to be sent and used in specific spots where mines will be laid and kept per longer-term plans, at least in the era of SVW and Hancock Station. Most fleets since seem to expect operations more mobile than routine use of mines would allow. (And they don't want to count on the opportunity to make sneaky, exceptional use of them.)

JeffEngel wrote:You could build mines so that they stand down at a signal you blip at them whenever you're coming through, or twig on Identify-Friend-or-Foe (IFF) so they shoot bad guys and don't shoot others. (And cross your fingers that they are robust and clever enough to resist enemy wiles and sheer accident that way.)

I suppose I just don't quite know how mines operate. *The example I have references their finicky nature and tendency to attack a friendly. The Cerberus reference. Also, the thickness of the mines laid down at Cerberus is also what I draw on, and Cerberus features only a few ships trying to verrry slowly navigate them. It seems a fleet of ships would be severely hampered.

*Also my Hollywood colored glasses of minefields.

In the Honorverse, a modern mine is basicly a laserhead missile, with out the missile part. They do not have to actually contact the enemy ship, but only to get within laserhead standoff range.

For wormhole denial implacemtent, they would be set within range of the arrival lane, down its length, just outside of the area where grav shear would destroy them. If you actually put them in the lane, you would need to build them with W-sails to keep them from being destroyed.

Under normal circumstances, (for example, around the Manticore Junction before the war started,) they would be set to manual activation from the duty forts, so they don't accidentally attack somebody you don't want them to. In a wartime situation, they would be set to query the IFF of any incoming ship, and if it does not give an accepted response, the mine attacks; though it probably has an override lockdown code in case you have a known incoming ship that is having problems transmitting. In the case of the bridge from Torch to the Twins, the MAlign would have set the mines to immediately attack anything coming out of the terminus.

The reason for the intense worry on the approach to Hadies had more to do with the ships worrying that Charon might think they were a threat than worrying they might hit a mine. That is why Honor was able to destroy that one ship in orbit, even though it was not moving. She just detonated the mines he was in range of.

crewdude48 wrote:The reason for the intense worry on the approach to Hadies had more to do with the ships worrying that Charon might think they were a threat than worrying they might hit a mine. That is why Honor was able to destroy that one ship in orbit, even though it was not moving. She just detonated the mines he was in range of.

I think another issue over Hades may well have been that StateSec paid a lot less care about avoiding friendly fire than the Navy or Fortress Command would have. Psycho amateurs with too much funding....

crewdude48 wrote:In the Honorverse, a modern mine is basicly a laserhead missile, with out the missile part. They do not have to actually contact the enemy ship, but only to get within laserhead standoff range.

For wormhole denial implacemtent, they would be set within range of the arrival lane, down its length, just outside of the area where grav shear would destroy them. If you actually put them in the lane, you would need to build them with W-sails to keep them from being destroyed.

Under normal circumstances, (for example, around the Manticore Junction before the war started,) they would be set to manual activation from the duty forts, so they don't accidentally attack somebody you don't want them to. In a wartime situation, they would be set to query the IFF of any incoming ship, and if it does not give an accepted response, the mine attacks; though it probably has an override lockdown code in case you have a known incoming ship that is having problems transmitting. In the case of the bridge from Torch to the Twins, the MAlign would have set the mines to immediately attack anything coming out of the terminus.

The reason for the intense worry on the approach to Hadies had more to do with the ships worrying that Charon might think they were a threat than worrying they might hit a mine. That is why Honor was able to destroy that one ship in orbit, even though it was not moving. She just detonated the mines he was in range of.

I appreciate this very informative post. My vision of mines was black and white movies, a misstep and a missing leg. Well, mostly.

Is there a reason why future LACs should not all be Katanas? Is there a tactical advantage in having the other LACs?

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:Couple of questions. In another thread it was brought up a tactic of emplacing mines at a wormhole to prevent an enemy fleet from utilizing said wormhole. But wouldn't that prevent your own use? At least your own efficient use?

You could build mines so that they stand down at a signal you blip at them whenever you're coming through, or twig on Identify-Friend-or-Foe (IFF) so they shoot bad guys and don't shoot others. (And cross your fingers that they are robust and clever enough to resist enemy wiles and sheer accident that way.)

They were't explicitely called mines, but here's a bit from On Basilisk Station about what was planned to be deployed to protect the Manticoran wormhole in times of war.

On Basilisk Station - Ch: 5 wrote:In time of war, the forts would be augmented by thickly seeded remote laser platforms—old-fashioned, bomb-pumped laser satellites—much closer in and programmed to automatically engage anything not positively identified as friendly, but such measures were never used in peacetime. Accidents could always happen, and the accidental destruction of a passenger liner whose IFF wasn't recognized could be embarrassing, to say the very least.