Attacking Darius:

penny wrote:Left mount this horse from the other side. Uwi g supplies textev.

"Plot us a least-time course to the Spindle System, if you please, Ms. Zilwicki," Terekhov requested courteously, and Helen swallowed hard. She'd calculated endless courses to all sorts of destinations . . . under classroom conditions.

An Alpha with a genetically engineered brain would never swallow hard. An Alpha would be excited by the mental feedback.

"Aye, aye, Sir!" she said quickly, giving the only possible answer, and began punching data requests into her console.

The speed at which an Alpha who is genengineered to do this job would be off the scale. Without hesitation. Brutally confident.

IF an Alpha even had to utilize a computer rather than his/her own brain. An Alpha might be able to perform these calculations without computer assistance, and much faster. The response time of an Alpha should be increased significantly. Time in the middle of a battle is a valuable commodity.

Lieutenant Commander Wright sat back, elbows propped on his chair's arm rests, with a mildly interested expression. Part of her resented his presence, but most of her was deeply relieved he was there. He might not intervene to save her from herself if he saw her making a mistake during her calculations. But at least she could count on him to stop her at the end if she'd plotted a course to put them inside a star somewhere on the far side of the League.

An Alpha astrogator would NEVER make a mistake, and would be appalled at the idea of needing a babysitter to save them.

The computers began obediently spewing out information, and she plotted the endpoints of the necessary course, feeling grateful that Hexapuma was already outside the local star's hyper limit. At least she didn't have to crank that into her calculations!

An Alpha would welcome as much complexity as possible out of boredom. Again, if they were even using the ship's computers. Especially if they are (@Thinksmarkedly) augmented with their own supercomputer interfacing with their brain. We all know the speed and advantages of having an onboard processor.

Next she punched in a search order, directing the computer to overlay her rough course with the strongest h-space gravity waves and to isolate the wave patterns which would carry them towards Spindle.

An Alpha astrogator has that data memorized, at the very least.

She also remembered to allow for velocity loss on downward hyper translations to follow a given grav wave.

An Alpha would never forget.

She'd forgotten to do that once in an Academy astrogation problem and wound up adding over sixty hours to the total voyage time she was calculating

Should've copied off the Alpha sitting beside you. LOL

She felt a small trickle of satisfaction as she realized the same thing would have happened here, if she'd simply asked the computers to plot a course along the most powerful gravity waves, because one strong section of them never rose above the Gamma bands, which would have required at least three downward translations. That would not only have cost them over sixty percent of their base velocity at each downward translation, but Hexapuma's maximum apparent velocity would have been far lower in the lower bands, as well.

She punched in waypoints along the blinking green line of her rough course as the computer refined the best options for gravity waves and the necessary impeller drive transitions between them. The blinking line stopped blinking, burning a steady green, as the waypoints marched along it.

As easy as the multiplication tables for an Alpha.


Coordinating more than one ship:

Control had to be so fine at such low ranges that something as small as a tiny difference in the cycle time of the hyper generators of two different ships could throw their n-space emergences off by light-seconds and hopelessly scramble his formation.

There would be an Alpha in each ship as an astrogator. I wonder how that would affect the equation.

Finally from chapter 54 of Torch of Freedom we know that the hyper-generator includes mechanical parts that can wear: in this case a rotor shaft that snapped and caused additional damage.

Which would throw a spanner in the works for any astrogator, for any microjump attempted. Risks are taken just as they are when removing the safety interlocks from the "engines."

Summary: I have been spinning my wheels on something so simple it is ridiculous. After All the threads speculating about the MA's genetic tampering. sigh

In the heat of battle, any time saved can be the difference between life and death. An astrogator that is an Alpha doesn't make mistakes. An Alpha might even anticipate requests and have the results ready ahead of time.

There might not even be an astrogator aboard MA ships. The commander may be able to do the calculations in his own head. If you cannot fathom the capabilities of an Alpha aboard each ship in critical positions providing a possible decisive edge, where were you in so many of the appropriate threads?

sigh

I'll provide you a counterpoint, and one you've pointed out in other situations. Honor herself is a lost Alpha (much as I hate that revalation for how it undermines her achievements). And she certainly can't do that astrogation math in her head, nor does she have all the related values and hazard positions memorized.

I think you're dramatically overestimating the capabilities of an Alpha.

penny wrote:An Alpha with a genetically engineered brain would never swallow hard. An Alpha would be excited by the mental feedback.

How do you know excessive saliva production isn't an unintentional side-effect that they haven't excised from the genome yet because it's not a primary objective? Intelligence is, and if that means you need to have water bottles all around the bridge so the Alphas can still function, there will be water bottles.

In the heat of battle, any time saved can be the difference between life and death. An astrogator that is an Alpha doesn't make mistakes. An Alpha might even anticipate requests and have the results ready ahead of time.

What? The Alpha-Plus-Plus of Benjamin Detweiler makes mistakes. Maybe not Maths mistakes, but "garbage in garbage out" still applies: if you ask the wrong question, the answer is irrelevant. Or worse, counterproductive.

There might not even be an astrogator aboard MA ships. The commander may be able to do the calculations in his own head. If you cannot fathom the capabilities of an Alpha aboard each ship in critical positions providing a possible decisive edge, where were you in so many of the appropriate threads?

Division of labour and cognitive load. The commander has more important things to do than to worry about the exact course. So either there's someone that to do that, or the computer does it all.

penny wrote:I read kzt's tactic to be solely available to stealth ships. GA ships do not enjoy that stealth.

What stealth? The hyper translation dumps a huge amount of energy on the arrival band. With sensitive enough sensors, you can see this from a light-month away! Standard shipboard sensors can see hyper footprints out a light-hour or more.

In fact, the danger I'd speculate is that it's so close that the sensors get saturated and fried.

penny wrote:So you microjump several ships independently until you hit the mark. One ship unleashing hell should do the trick. One sub killing 14 ships.

Or defeat in detail.

I agree that if it were possible to get a 14:1 exchange ratio and reasonable chance of success, it would be a valid strategy. I don't think it is. The rules of the Honorverse is that your hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds after a translation, so that's how long the target has to shoot at you before you can even see if you're the lucky one out of the 14.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I read kzt's tactic to be solely available to stealth ships. GA ships do not enjoy that stealth.

What stealth? The hyper translation dumps a huge amount of energy on the arrival band. With sensitive enough sensors, you can see this from a light-month away! Standard shipboard sensors can see hyper footprints out a light-hour or more.

In fact, the danger I'd speculate is that it's so close that the sensors get saturated and fried.

penny wrote:So you microjump several ships independently until you hit the mark. One ship unleashing hell should do the trick. One sub killing 14 ships.

Or defeat in detail.

I agree that if it were possible to get a 14:1 exchange ratio and reasonable chance of success, it would be a valid strategy. I don't think it is. The rules of the Honorverse is that your hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds after a translation, so that's how long the target has to shoot at you before you can even see if you're the lucky one out of the 14.

I apologize to everyone for the aberration in my genetically altered brain. It is tough being an Alpha. And my side effect displays itself as a pit bull with a rag doll. Misery loves company, and I am not quite ready to let this tactic go.

First. I was not aware that hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds. Can you reissue that memo in the form of text? I was under the impression that only the biological hardware is scrambled, i.e., humans. Manifesting itself with nausea and the hurling of ones lunch. I posited that genetic engineering can eliminate that sickness and allow the crew to function immediately. Unless you are correct that hardware is scrambled and won't function.

If hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds, then containment bottles and reactors should go boom. Nothing should work!

So I still think the tactic has merit.

1. No other navy has ever contemplated such a tactic because it would be tantamount to suicide. No other navy would utilize a tactic that would intentionally send the crew on a one-way trip. But we're talking about the MAlign where the ends have always justified the means.

2. Hardware not functioning for 30 seconds notwithstanding, if true. Otherwise, no other navy had any crew that could function for those critical 30 seconds.

The MA might be the sole entity where neither applies. One LD as a kamikaze is certainly the kind of thinking of the MA. The Salamander herself could be killed. Nobody would expect that attack because it isn't possible for any other navy to pull it off if they are paralyzed with nausea for 30 seconds.

In At All Costs Honor asked her astrogator to place her in a specific range from her enemy. Where she was inside her envelope but outside of theirs. Why can't the opposite be feasible?

"Place me as close to the enemy fleet as possible. Right inside their underwear!"

Preferably inside that shell of LACs and recon drones. With pods pre-rolled and firing immediately, why wouldn't this work if the only thing preventing it before is the translation sickness that the MA might have eliminated?

So, textev for hardware out for 30-seconds and this bulldog will let the rag doll go. I'll even ignore how the reactor's containment field still works. And other necessary hardware where 30-seconds would destroy the ship. Plasma released all over the ship???

But getting a fort inside the shell of LACs and drones on the right bearing towards sidewalls should be a devastating attack. With 3-second firing grasers adding to the melee.

Blame it on kzt for giving this dog that bone.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And yet, this probe is the only thing that managed to make any damage to the Grand Fleet for the next two weeks of battle, until the surrender.

penny wrote:That isn't true. The sucker punch destroyed more ships. The MA tricked the GA into coming closer.

tlb wrote:On the contrary, ThinksMarkedly's point is strictly true; since the sucker punch occurred AFTER the surrender.

Right, I was very strict in what I wrote because I didn't want to talk about the sucker punch because I (and many others) have problems with it. There's no reason it should have worked and it couldn't have worked at all given what was described in the text. The math doesn't work out because Honor parked the GF one full light-minute away from the habitats, so the missiles couldn't have closed that quickly that the ships wouldn't have cleared for action. The ships didn't strike wedges.

That was a narrative plot device that was meant to make us think Honor may commit an atrocity, which we knew she wouldn't. She didn't in the Battle of Sol, when she thought Hamish was dead and this was soon after the Beowulf Atrocity. So I don't know why the authors thought we would think she would.

And in any case, I was also specific about it being during the battle itself. After you've surrendered, you've surrendered and nothing is getting out of the system. You've lost. So it's not a solution for defending Darius.

I repeat: there is no strategy that can successfully defend Darius, like there was none for Galton or, for that matter, for Sol. There's only making the cost high. The SLN and Kingsford wisely did not. Galton knew they couldn't win so they set out to make the cost high and they nearly didn't achieve anything, aside from those two ship kills early in the fight. I bet the same thinking minds that came up with the defence of Galton have run the same simulations for Darius and have still come up empty.

No, the MAlign victory does not come through a successful defence of Darius. They have to achieve victory before it is discovered. So it may come to pass that, knowing this, they won't invest in heavy defences in the first place, because that at least has the advantage of pretending they weren't the "Malignant Alignment" in the first place.

Who says they weren't cleared for action? Honor's spider senses were still tingling. Regulations would have had them still cleared for action. Especially since Honor intentionally kept them 20M km away. Plus the fact that these are the most professional, battle-seasoned navies in the galaxy who really are taking the Alignment serious???

But I have to admit, I didn't consider the author simply wanting to give us a reason to think Honor would have a melt down. I also admit I thought she actually would.

I thought the purpose of that attack - whether it should have been possible or not - was to give the Alignment data on the performance of the missiles when in range of the enemy with a stealthy attack. 11 SDs were killed. Now do a little thought experiment and calculate the butcher's bill if those missiles had been Hastas.

You and I haggle back and forth over the performance of MA stealth. You allow 1 light second stealth. You do know what that means don't you? According to that passage, if an LD can get even 10 light seconds from a target, it's dead. LOL

I understand why you debunk this passage. It is because of it's implications. Even in the face of textev you task me. He tasks me. LOL (Ricardo Montalban) Textev is spot on only when it supports y'all. But when it supports my theories the author made a mistake. LOL

"One handwavium for you. Two for me. Two handwaviums for you. Three for me." You sound like my older brother when we were kids and I couldn't do anything about how he dispersed the last of the cookies. LOL

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The rules of the Honorverse is that your hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds after a translation, so that's how long the target has to shoot at you before you can even see if you're the lucky one out of the 14.

penny wrote:First. I was not aware that hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds. Can you reissue that memo in the form of text? I was under the impression that only the biological hardware is scrambled, i.e., humans. Manifesting itself with nausea and the hurling of ones lunch. I posited that genetic engineering can eliminate that sickness and allow the crew to function immediately. Unless you are correct that hardware is scrambled and won't function.

If hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds, then containment bottles and reactors should go boom. Nothing should work!

I have to agree with Penny that text needs to be provided for that 30 second scramble. Any scramble must be to the astrogation data on where exactly the ship is and what is around it, which could possibly extend to the external sensors. As he does, I doubt that it extends to purely internal matters, such as managing the fusion reactors.

penny wrote:You and I haggle back and forth over the performance of MA stealth. You allow 1 light second stealth. You do know what that means don't you? According to that passage, if an LD can get even 10 light seconds from a target, it's dead. LOL

How is an opponent dead at 10 light seconds?

1) max energy weapons range against a target with side walls is 1.5 light seconds. energy weapons are worthless at 10 ls.

2) 10 LS was pretty much single drive missile range (at full speed)- Missiles which would take 60 seconds to reach their target.... and show where they came from from their wedges.

3) an LD has a max acceleration of 150gs with everyone strapped into crash couches - not something you can keep up for days on end. A 250 year old SLN SD can maneuver for months at 350+ Gs at 80% of it's compensator. An LD @ 10 LS cannot maneuver to catch an a ship with 3x it's acceleration unless it's on a reciprocal course or ~30 degrees off a reciprocal bearing.

4) Grav Torpedos have an accel of 250 Gs. they have a wider intercept basket than a LD, but still extremely limited against a ship accelerating at 350 Gs.

penny wrote:First. I was not aware that hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds. Can you reissue that memo in the form of text? I was under the impression that only the biological hardware is scrambled, i.e., humans. Manifesting itself with nausea and the hurling of ones lunch. I posited that genetic engineering can eliminate that sickness and allow the crew to function immediately. Unless you are correct that hardware is scrambled and won't function.

If hardware is scrambled for 30 seconds, then containment bottles and reactors should go boom. Nothing should work!

I don't think it's 30 seconds - but the flare of hyper emergence does seem like it at least partially blinds the ships sensors for a second or two. (It wouldn't scramble its internal hardware - but it's hard to effectively shoot someone if you're more than half blinded)

But when Pierre's son's BCs had the bad luck to hyper in within energy range of Bellerophon (though the good luck to emerge dead ahead, staring down the open mouth of its wedge) it took them nearly 10 seconds to orient and fire -- just enough time for the DN to bring up sidewalls and twist to interpose them.

To be fair, some of that delay was shock. We're explicitly told that Admiral Pierre had a moment of panic before ordering his ships to turn broadside to fire down the vulnerable throat of the DN. And there's no explicit mention, in that passage, of needing time for their sensors to recover - but I think that might get mentioned in other places.

Theemile wrote:How is an opponent dead at 10 light seconds?

1) max energy weapons range against a target with side walls is 1.5 light seconds. energy weapons are worthless at 10 ls.

2) 10 LS was pretty much single drive missile range - Missiles which would take 3 minutes to reach their target.... and show where they came from from their wedges.

I don't disagree with your points - 10 LS range gives an RMN formation sufficient time to defend themselves - but a minor technical clarification

10 LS is slightly less than half of full SDM range, only about 3 million km. That is almost twice as far as an SDM at full power; but at its half-power setting one can cover that distance in "only" 116 seconds; so slightly under 2 minutes to reach their targets.

A DDM or MDM could cover that distance at full power in just 82 seconds.

And the latest Cataphract design we've seen could actually do so in 80 seconds (just 5 seconds on the 1st stage, and then the full 75 on the CM derived 2nd stage)


Still, even 80 seconds is plenty of time for anti-missile defense to kick in; and the trade-off for the reduced missile flight times is that the missiles are moving much slower making them far easier to intercept. For that matter, at 10 LS, the missies are launching from within range of Mk31 CMs (which have a 3.5 million km, or 11.6 LS, range).


Heck, those CM wedges could be shredding the hull of a LD at 10 LS just 69 seconds after they launch. And since sidewalls are incompatible with the LD's propulsion it doesn't appear to have any passive defense against wedge strikes -- if it doesn't hard kill every single CM their wedges would vaporize it...

penny wrote:You and I haggle back and forth over the performance of MA stealth. You allow 1 light second stealth.

You keep remarking on that 1 light second stealth; but to the best of my knowledge, that 1 LS figure is only internal to the Malign: it is the range at which the Malign spider drive detection stops being effective. From Mission of Honor:

Chapter 28 wrote:But the spider also had one overwhelming advantage: it was effectively undetectable by any sensor system deployed by any navy (including the MAN itself) at any range much beyond a single light-second.