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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:20 pm

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penny wrote:I certainly did not consider quantum fluctuations in the hyper generator and the wall, which I would agree is very important. But shouldn't a good astrogator take those factors into consideration and apply the recommended weight to each one. Found in the front of the book in the coursebook Astrography 101? :D:

I still can't see an astrogator's job merely being inputting beginning and ending coordinates in the GPS and letting the computer do the rest. Or storyline led me astray.

How exactly do you account for a quantum fluctuation? By its very nature, you don't know the direction nor magnitude of the effect.

As for the job of the astrogator, here is a brief example from Shadow of Saganami:
Chapter 8 wrote:"Plot us a least-time course to the Spindle System, if you please, Ms. Zilwicki," Terekhov requested courteously, and Helen swallowed hard. She'd calculated endless courses to all sorts of destinations . . . under classroom conditions.

"Aye, aye, Sir!" she said quickly, giving the only possible answer, and began punching data requests into her console.

Lieutenant Commander Wright sat back, elbows propped on his chair's arm rests, with a mildly interested expression. Part of her resented his presence, but most of her was deeply relieved he was there. He might not intervene to save her from herself if he saw her making a mistake during her calculations. But at least she could count on him to stop her at the end if she'd plotted a course to put them inside a star somewhere on the far side of the League.

The computers began obediently spewing out information, and she plotted the endpoints of the necessary course, feeling grateful that Hexapuma was already outside the local star's hyper limit. At least she didn't have to crank that into her calculations!

Next she punched in a search order, directing the computer to overlay her rough course with the strongest h-space gravity waves and to isolate the wave patterns which would carry them towards Spindle. She also remembered to allow for velocity loss on downward hyper translations to follow a given grav wave. She'd forgotten to do that once in an Academy astrogation problem and wound up adding over sixty hours to the total voyage time she was calculating.

She felt a small trickle of satisfaction as she realized the same thing would have happened here, if she'd simply asked the computers to plot a course along the most powerful gravity waves, because one strong section of them never rose above the Gamma bands, which would have required at least three downward translations. That would not only have cost them over sixty percent of their base velocity at each downward translation, but Hexapuma's maximum apparent velocity would have been far lower in the lower bands, as well.

She punched in waypoints along the blinking green line of her rough course as the computer refined the best options for gravity waves and the necessary impeller drive transitions between them. The blinking line stopped blinking, burning a steady green, as the waypoints marched along it.

From Echoes of Honor, here is an example difficulties of coordinating more than one ship:
Chapter 38 wrote:Control had to be so fine at such low ranges that something as small as a tiny difference in the cycle time of the hyper generators of two different ships could throw their n-space emergences off by light-seconds and hopelessly scramble his formation.

Finally from chapter 54 of Torch of Freedom we know that the hyper-generator includes mechanical parts that can wear: in this case a rotor shaft that snapped and caused additional damage.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:55 pm

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Quantum effects are consistent, therefore quantum fluctuations should also be consistent. Quantum manipulation is consistent as well; or it would be impossible to use it in our next generation quantum computers because these quantum computers would then be impossible.


In the news:

Quantum signal sent from spacecraft.
https://physicsworld.com/a/quantum-sign ... 300%20km/h

In other news, a quantum signal has been sent through a 'wormhole". It isn't a classical wormhole, but what if the MA has found a way to send signals through a wormhole? It can communicate with an invisible platform on the other end.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thebri ... a-wormhole
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:58 pm

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tlb wrote:How exactly do you account for a quantum fluctuation? By its very nature, you don't know the direction nor magnitude of the effect.


Import a Heisenberg Compensator from the Star Trek Universe.

As for the job of the astrogator, here is a brief example from Shadow of Saganami:[cut]


It seems the computers in the Honorverse a more powerful, but little more intelligent than ours. They spew out exactly the information that was requested... not the information that the user really wanted to get.

I'm still skeptical about natural language processing AIs like ChatGPT, because now you have to contend not only with your asking the right question, but with whether the AI understood you. You're adding a layer of complexity, not removing one. And that's not to mention AI Hallucination.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:16 pm

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penny wrote:Quantum effects are consistent, therefore quantum fluctuations should also be consistent. Quantum manipulation is consistent as well; or it would be impossible to use it in our next generation quantum computers because these quantum computers would then be impossible.

Consider radioactive decay; you know that it will happen, but you do not know when.

Consider Schrödinger's cat, which you have mentioned before, in what way is that consistent? You only know the state after you examine the cat.

Quantum effects are consistent only the sense that you know what they were after a measurement. That may be sufficient for a quantum computer; but for a hyper transition, it is only after you make the transition that you know the effect of any quantum fluctuations.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:29 pm

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penny wrote:If that were so it'd seem pulling off a dogleg near the hyper limit would be ill-fated and inadvisable.

I certainly did not consider quantum fluctuations in the hyper generator and the wall, which I would agree is very important. But shouldn't a good astrogator take those factors into consideration and apply the recommended weight to each one. Found in the front of the book in the coursebook Astrography 101? :D:

I still can't see an astrogator's job merely being inputting beginning and ending coordinates in the GPS and letting the computer do the rest. Or storyline led me astray.

If they're actually quantum fluctuations then they might be, to some extent, unknowable -- so you can't precisely measure nor entirely correct for them. That said, just because you can't 100% account for them doesn't mean it isn't possible to narrow the probability range they're in, and thus reduce their impact over not trying to account for them at all.

I'm not saying a skill astrogator might not be able to trim down the uncertainty some; nor that they wouldn't be better than the computer at judging the appropriate amount of risk to run in a tactical jump. Just that even the best astrogator is likely to have less pin-point perfect microjumps than they'd like.



As for the riskiness of a dogleg course - that depends on how much safety margin you leave yourself. Just as a made up example, if you know there's a 99.9% change of emerging within 30 lightseconds of your planned emergence point then it should safe to plot a dogleg course that has you aiming to emerge just over 30 LS from the hyperlimit (or any RZ). You can't count on emerging in energy range but you'd be pretty darn sure you wouldn't be bouncing off the hyper limit. (And effectively certain you wouldn't be overshooting badly enough to be trying to emerge dangerously deep inside the limit -- recall than in the outer 20% of the limit you can't emerge but the failure doesn't damage the ship or crew it just leaves it in hyper for the moment)

But if you had that same spherical margin of error and rolled the dice on aiming to emerge just a couple thousand km short of the hyper limit you'd have a fairly high likelihood of just bouncing off -- but even if you were unlucky enough to actually attempt to emerge at the deepest point of the hyper limit that error bubble covered you should still be in that outer 20% of the limit; and thus not risking a fatal accident when trying to roll the dice on emergence.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:36 pm

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penny wrote:Quantum effects are consistent, therefore quantum fluctuations should also be consistent. Quantum manipulation is consistent as well; or it would be impossible to use it in our next generation quantum computers because these quantum computers would then be impossible.


In the news:

Quantum signal sent from spacecraft.
https://physicsworld.com/a/quantum-sign ... 300%20km/h

In other news, a quantum signal has been sent through a 'wormhole". It isn't a classical wormhole, but what if the MA has found a way to send signals through a wormhole? It can communicate with an invisible platform on the other end.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thebri ... a-wormhole
On the contrary quantum fluctuations are about the only source we know of of basically perfect randomness.

Yes, they vary within a definable range - but they are equally likely to be any value within that range; and their value at one instant has zero correlation to their value at the next instant.

(well, unless like ThinksMarkedly joked about, you get your hands on a Heisenberg Compensator)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:40 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:Quantum effects are consistent, therefore quantum fluctuations should also be consistent. Quantum manipulation is consistent as well; or it would be impossible to use it in our next generation quantum computers because these quantum computers would then be impossible.


In the news:

Quantum signal sent from spacecraft.
https://physicsworld.com/a/quantum-sign ... 300%20km/h

In other news, a quantum signal has been sent through a 'wormhole". It isn't a classical wormhole, but what if the MA has found a way to send signals through a wormhole? It can communicate with an invisible platform on the other end.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thebri ... a-wormhole
On the contrary quantum fluctuations are about the only source we know of of basically perfect randomness.

Yes, they vary within a definable range - but they are equally likely to be any value within that range; and their value at one instant has zero correlation to their value at the next instant.

(well, unless like ThinksMarkedly joked about, you get your hands on a Heisenberg Compensator)

You said exactly what I meant. Quantum fluctuations will always vary within a definable range. Consistent. That is why I said all you have to do is add the appropriate weight back in from the tables in the back or front of the book (adjust by the appropriate weight). But of course, you cannot pinpoint a certain value; which would be completely contrary to quantum theory.

Even Schrödinger's cat has infinite possibilities even though there is a final binary outcome (theoretically). On observation, the cat will either be dead or alive. There are only two possible outcomes that are fluctuating with time. Only the act of observation causes the system to settle on one outcome; which is different from moment to moment. However, the fluctuations will always fall within a certain range. [Dead ... Alive]. But never simply dying; or half-dead or half-alive. But again (theoretically) the cat is fluctuating between these two possible states (outcomes). 10% dead. 15% dead. 20% dead, etc. ... representing the randomness of which you speak, within a closed system of possible outcomes.

That also explains why in the Shutting down the MWJ thread, the quantum relationship between all points in the WH has to be infinite, to cover all possibilities of tonnage that one might possibly try to send through. They will be used as instant "lookup tables" by the junction.

So, in applying this to our initial problem, the fluctuations will be a function of the stimuli. And the hyper generators should not suddenly jump from a MTBF (Meantime Between Failure) that is high to one that is low.

I suspect the HV relies on this fact to compute the time for a ship to visit the yards to get certain parts repaired or replaced. These same computations should be possible for the astrogation computer to compute and update on the fly.

There will always be an infinite amount of possibilities between two points or values. In a closed system this will not break the bank. But in an open system this fact becomes critical. Like in the ? thread where the significant size of a missile is ever increasing in mass as it accelerates toward the speed of light whose final result approaches infinity ... as the missile approaches the speed of light. Between 0.7C+ to C. So sayeth the god of the HV.

(I do intend to get back to that thread, joat.)

Whew! I can abandon the bloated post I was preparing.
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Now I can talk in the third person.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:10 am

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penny wrote:You said exactly what I meant. Quantum fluctuations will always vary within a definable range. Consistent. That is why I said all you have to do is add the appropriate weight back in from the tables in the back or front of the book (adjust by the appropriate weight). But of course, you cannot pinpoint a certain value; which would be completely contrary to quantum theory.

We are trying to say that the wall is chaotic, involving gravity shears, energy flows and fluctuations. Instead you think an "appropriate weight" can be ADDED to account for all effects. What if sometimes that has to be subtracted? What if it manifests itself as a force that can have both a random magnitude (even if it is capped by some value) and a random direction?
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:30 am

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:You said exactly what I meant. Quantum fluctuations will always vary within a definable range. Consistent. That is why I said all you have to do is add the appropriate weight back in from the tables in the back or front of the book (adjust by the appropriate weight). But of course, you cannot pinpoint a certain value; which would be completely contrary to quantum theory.

We are trying to say that the wall is chaotic, involving gravity shears, energy flows and fluctuations. Instead you think an "appropriate weight" can be ADDED to account for all effects. What if sometimes that has to be subtracted? What if it manifests itself as a force that can have both a random magnitude (even if it is capped by some value) and a random direction?

Exactly - knowing an unmeasurably value might, for example, be any value between 0.5 and 2.5 doesn't really help if that range of fluctuations causes a multiple lightsecond dispersion in your entry point. What can you add in to the unknown to counter that?
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:56 am

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:You said exactly what I meant. Quantum fluctuations will always vary within a definable range. Consistent. That is why I said all you have to do is add the appropriate weight back in from the tables in the back or front of the book (adjust by the appropriate weight). But of course, you cannot pinpoint a certain value; which would be completely contrary to quantum theory.

We are trying to say that the wall is chaotic, involving gravity shears, energy flows and fluctuations. Instead you think an "appropriate weight" can be ADDED to account for all effects. What if sometimes that has to be subtracted? What if it manifests itself as a force that can have both a random magnitude (even if it is capped by some value) and a random direction?

Jonathan_S wrote:Exactly - knowing an unmeasurably value might, for example, be any value between 0.5 and 2.5 doesn't really help if that range of fluctuations causes a multiple lightsecond dispersion in your entry point. What can you add in to the unknown to counter that?

I don't think the wall or quantum theory is as disagreeable as that.

At any rate, I knew I shouldn't have phrased it that way. The terms 'adding' or 'subtracting' is misleading. Rather than the phrase I later tried to edit into its place; which is 'adjust by the appropriate weight.' Even so, your notion still applies.

However, I think it might be that you are alluding to first year mathematics (and your notion is spot on, btw) whereby, for example, we regard the negative root of a quadratic equation as being meaningless. We all knew that that negative root would not always be meaningless. We all knew it wasn't really meaningless back in grade school. It was simply beyond the scope of first year mathematics.

But that negative root is always a scalar that is the exact opposite of the positive root in magnitude. If the positive root is plotted on the graph at X = 3 the negative root will always be X = - 3.

Simplified, of course, for the sake of discussion.

And yes, that fact can yield wildly divergent microjumps. If the scalar is large enough then the negative result of that scalar can place us quite some distance away. But the hypotenuse of the scalar will always be the same.

That knowledge still does not solve our problem. If as you said the wall is as wildly chaotic as you claim it to be. In which case, the fluctuations could vary wildly from one jump to another. But I personally do not think the wall is fluctuating so much in a small timeframe. Rather than wildly varying... in time measured in hours, days, weeks or even months. Or the equation will have changed before the second jump in a dogleg. Therefore, one reason a ship might hyper in and out is to measure the degree of fluctuations currently operating on the wall.

And of course, that leaves the possibly the fluctuations which were the same for weeks is due to change right at the moment a ship decides to jump. Rotten luck, for any ship not belonging to the GA and friends.

If the wall isn't at least somewhat stable enough in that respect, then I'll go ahead and order another prescription of huge pills to swallow to suspend my disbelief as far as storyline. Stat!

At any rate, the discussion that spurred these 'entangled photons' is kzt's brilliant suggestion of utilizing just as brilliant a tactic of jumping in the midst of a GA fleet who is stooging around the edge of the galaxy in Darius as it did at Galton, while basking in its on hubris.

I agree that even an Alpha astrogator's attempt will depend on the most impossible to adjust for quantum fluctuations of the plot device.
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The artist formerly known as cthia.

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