What did Captain Zavala do next? and the SL's reaction.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:...That would have required Sir Edward to be something less stupid than a brick, however.

Rob

SharkHunter wrote:I don't think Janacek was unintelligent. I think he was totally corrupt, aided and abetted both by the North Hollow gang, Descroix, and High Ridge, and when his shenanighans were detected, he suicided to avoid being disgraced first before he was shot.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Being intelligent does not preclude stupidity.

Rob

Indeed, NeoBob. I might amend it by saying it does not preclude stupid actions (see the Mandarins for another example). but I've always seen Janacek as someone who, while educated and probably reasonably able and intelligent, simply had no ability to grow or adapt to changing situations....he was what he always was, knew what he knew (and knew that it was the right thing for him and his Kingdom) and simply did not have the flexibility to change (as Hamish did after Honor tore him a new one in IEH).

In another time, one without the threat Haven presented, he might have been a perfectly adequate First Lord.

But for his time, he was not what was needed.

JeffEngel wrote:I think they built the Roland as a destroyer and meant it as one, and find themselves using it as a light cruiser - in part because they do need it for light cruiser duty (which in today's RMN, includes eating battlecruisers as needed, and eyeing Solly SD's with a certain hungry curiosity). They need it for the light cruiser duty because they've got so very many light cruiser missions, and the newest CL's proper are disappointments.

I never read anything about disappointment over the Avalons; but the only one we've seen was Aegis.

Actually, according to HoS, the Admiralty was very satisfied with it (Avalon-class), insofar as traditional light cruiser missions go. But, most of them are deployed to Silesia, in Sarnow's fleet. Along with most of the Kammerling class Marine transports. They are off-camera, so it is sort of hard to know why the Admiralty is happy with them, or the sorts of jobs they are doing.

With a lot of Silesia in their own possession, you can picket the systems instesd of escorting ships en route; you then need flagships for light forces, and the RMN didn't build any destroyer or light cruiser flagships.

If it was the Janacek crowd, I would guess that is because a Commodore ought to have a proper place to hang his hat. With the White Haven Admiralty, it is just another reason to build Roland, not Wolfhound. In Silesia, Rolands are probably mixed-flotilla flagships.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I think they built the Roland as a destroyer and meant it as one, and find themselves using it as a light cruiser - in part because they do need it for light cruiser duty (which in today's RMN, includes eating battlecruisers as needed, and eyeing Solly SD's with a certain hungry curiosity). They need it for the light cruiser duty because they've got so very many light cruiser missions, and the newest CL's proper are disappointments.

I never read anything about disappointment over the Avalons; but the only one we've seen was Aegis.

Actually, according to HoS, the Admiralty was very satisfied with it (Avalon-class), insofar as traditional light cruiser missions go. But, most of them are deployed to Silesia, in Sarnow's fleet. Along with most of the Kammerling class Marine transports. They are off-camera, so it is sort of hard to know why the Admiralty is happy with them, or the sorts of jobs they are doing.

With a lot of Silesia in their own possession, you can picket the systems instesd of escorting ships en route; you then need flagships for light forces, and the RMN didn't build any destroyer or light cruiser flagships.

If it was the Janacek crowd, I would guess that is because a Commodore ought to have a proper place to hang his hat. With the White Haven Admiralty, it is just another reason to build Roland, not Wolfhound. In Silesia, Rolands are probably mixed-flotilla flagships.

Rob

I think you have a pretty strong point here, Rob. Traditionally, precisely because of the issues with piracy in Silesia, the RMN was very strong on light warships. With the annexation and the need to bring order there, Silesia was sucking up light combatants with a vengeance with the Quadrant which was not facing the same issues taking a distinct back seat to Silesia and the war effort. Now, the confrontation with the League has highlighted the need for even more light combatants given how effective in the multitude of places where the RMN has to project itself.

The Rolands, I think, were more geared toward the war with Haven where the need for Marines wasn't at such a premium. Now the situation has changed again dramatically.

Don

["quote="Armed Neo-Bob"]...That would have required Sir Edward to be something less stupid than a brick, however.

Rob[/quote]

SharkHunter wrote:I don't think Janacek was unintelligent. I think he was totally corrupt, aided and abetted both by the North Hollow gang, Descroix, and High Ridge, and when his shenanighans were detected, he suicided to avoid being disgraced first before he was shot.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Being intelligent does not preclude stupidity.

Rob

Hutch wrote:Indeed, NeoBob. I might amend it by saying it does not preclude stupid actions (see the Mandarins for another example). but I've always seen Janacek as someone who, while educated and probably reasonably able and intelligent, simply had no ability to grow or adapt to changing situations....he was what he always was, knew what he knew (and knew that it was the right thing for him and his Kingdom) and simply did not have the flexibility to change (as Hamish did after Honor tore him a new one in IEH).

In another time, one without the threat Haven presented, he might have been a perfectly adequate First Lord.

But for his time, he was not what was needed.

He was someone who spent his years in intelligence, looking at everything through the prism of his own pre-conceptions. I spent two active enlistments as an Army Linguist (MOS 98G, now 35P); you wouldn't believe how many super intelligent, utterly helpless people I ran into between the 302nd ASA BN, 104th MI, and Field Station Augsburg. Technical expertise in their own field, and no common sense at all. My opinion is that everyone should do a tour in the combat arms first. Fortunately, some of them were still Spec 6's and 7's. Until they gave them stripes.

Rob

Hutch wrote:Most people are considering that simply putting the Marines in the 'Command Station" quarters would answer this issue (at least for short missions), and it probably would suit for the warm bodies. However, all the equipment and support items for those warm bodies (battle armor?) and the number of things that go BOOM! need to be put somewhere on the ship, and that might be a problem that the engineers who designed the Roland might not have considered.

Or maybe they did..you know engineers...

Just wanted to make the point that it is not just the bodies that need to be considered in this case.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Battle armor would be tricky. The only quick fix I can think of for the lack of a built in maintenance and storage "morgue" would be to make a modular one that could be docked in the boat bay (displacing one of the none to numerous shuttles or pinnaces).

But if you restrict the Marine squad to armored skinsuits then it becomes more practical to shoehorn everything into the flag territory. Flag quarters should include at least one conference room for the flag staff. Pull the table and you've got some room to bolt in modular secure weapons lockers and weapons maintenance benches, tools, and parts. (And if you aren't carrying power armor, or its weapons, then you need a lot less maintenance hardware to support your squad)

Of course not given them power armor limits the firepower, sensors, and surviability that Marines can bring to the table. But they're still better trained for boarding or ground action than naval ratings, and Marine skinsuits are better protected from firearms than Naval ones.

It's hardly ideal, and hopefully future flights of Rolands can be modified to better support swing use of that space between Flag and Marine configuraitons. (Like build in a morgue that could double, inefficiently, as an extra stores room when the Marines and their armor aren't embarked.

JeffEngel wrote:While I'm at it - For that next generation unit, if they are building it a bit larger than a destroyer, they may want to build it with some modular elements. For instance, with quarters/storage that can be configured without terribly trouble for either (1) flag staff and systems, (2) a Marine detachment, (3) additional stores for longer patrols, (4) (this one is a bit wilder, granted) systems to service and monitor a larger number of recon drones, for scouting work.

Actually, if you were willing to settle for having your morgue pretty far from the Marine's quarters you probably could design a modular arrangement that would let you trade off the morgue for more recon drone storage / maintenance.

The recon drones are stored in or adjacent to the boat bay, and their mainenance area is there as well. If you build a modular area in the spot it could be big enough for a pair of drone hangers / maintenance bays - probably 2 deep moving away from the bay. Then you could design a modular morgue with the same dimensions as one the drone hanger/maintenance module - so you could run one drone module and put the morgue module back further from the bay.
It should be relatively easy to get even large modules in and out because they could go in through the boat bay - you'd just have to offload your small craft first.

It's obvious that the normal passages in ships are big enough for power armor to move, or they wouldn't use it on ships. It's also obvious that the structural strength of the decks and bulkheads is absurdly high. So all you need is a place to park the power armor, spare parts, diagnostic gear, and the tech to do the work. I would suspect that a container that can be locked to a deck or bulkhead isn't that tough to develop. In fact, as having to stage power armor units from unprepared sites must occasionally happen, I would suspect there is a standard unit designed for this that you can order.

So you just takeover the big mission briefing room, the one designed for the squadron command staff to present missions to the squadron. If you want more than a squad of power armor with a platoon then you'll have to also take over the COs quarters.

Past about a platoon of power armor I think you are in trouble, but I think you can figure out how to fit in that much.

kzt wrote:It's obvious that the normal passages in ships are big enough for power armor to move, or they wouldn't use it on ships. It's also obvious that the structural strength of the decks and bulkheads is absurdly high. So all you need is a place to park the power armor, spare parts, diagnostic gear, and the tech to do the work. I would suspect that a container that can be locked to a deck or bulkhead isn't that tough to develop. In fact, as having to stage power armor units from unprepared sites must occasionally happen, I would suspect there is a standard unit designed for this that you can order.

So you just takeover the big mission briefing room, the one designed for the squadron command staff to present missions to the squadron. If you want more than a squad of power armor with a platoon then you'll have to also take over the COs quarters.

Past about a platoon of power armor I think you are in trouble, but I think you can figure out how to fit in that much.

I haven't really heard where you plan on putting the messing area, and the training areas, including the firing range, for the marines. Those are also requirements, and the firing range in particular could be a little difficult to fit it. It won't do much good to have marines on board if they are rusty as hell when you get to the destination that they are supposed to assault.

fallsfromtrees wrote:I haven't really heard where you plan on putting the messing area, and the training areas, including the firing range, for the marines. Those are also requirements, and the firing range in particular could be a little difficult to fit it. It won't do much good to have marines on board if they are rusty as hell when you get to the destination that they are supposed to assault.

I suspect that it's not exactly impossible to use the mess facilities provided for the flag staff?

Where do you suggest they practice normally using their anti-armor weapons, the ones utilizing wedges or nuclear charge initiated plasma bolts? In the mess hall of a broadsword? How do you think the pinnace pilots practice their drop skills given that most ships spend their transit time in grav wave? Does this seems to result in horrible accidents due to their lack of familiarity with how to fly a pinnace?

For that matter, where exactly do you think the armor platoon of a marine battalion on an amphib in the western pacific practices fire and maneuver? How about an infantry company deliberate attack exercise?

No, these are done in training areas, with reinforcement via simulators when possible. People really don't forget how to shoot or fly in a few weeks if you really have been trained to the level where you should be.

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:While I'm at it - For that next generation unit, if they are building it a bit larger than a destroyer, they may want to build it with some modular elements. For instance, with quarters/storage that can be configured without terribly trouble for either (1) flag staff and systems, (2) a Marine detachment, (3) additional stores for longer patrols, (4) (this one is a bit wilder, granted) systems to service and monitor a larger number of recon drones, for scouting work.

Actually, if you were willing to settle for having your morgue pretty far from the Marine's quarters you probably could design a modular arrangement that would let you trade off the morgue for more recon drone storage / maintenance.

The recon drones are stored in or adjacent to the boat bay, and their mainenance area is there as well. If you build a modular area in the spot it could be big enough for a pair of drone hangers / maintenance bays - probably 2 deep moving away from the bay. Then you could design a modular morgue with the same dimensions as one the drone hanger/maintenance module - so you could run one drone module and put the morgue module back further from the bay.
It should be relatively easy to get even large modules in and out because they could go in through the boat bay - you'd just have to offload your small craft first.

Quartering the marines near the boat bay is independently reasonable anyway - it's where they leave to do their marine things. And systems for maintaining battle armor, small craft, and recon drones may well overlap somewhat, so caring for all of them within a single general area may be handy.

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:I haven't really heard where you plan on putting the messing area, and the training areas, including the firing range, for the marines. Those are also requirements, and the firing range in particular could be a little difficult to fit it. It won't do much good to have marines on board if they are rusty as hell when you get to the destination that they are supposed to assault.

I suspect that it's not exactly impossible to use the mess facilities provided for the flag staff?

Where do you suggest they practice normally using their anti-armor weapons, the ones utilizing wedges or nuclear charge initiated plasma bolts? In the mess hall of a broadsword? How do you think the pinnace pilots practice their drop skills given that most ships spend their transit time in grav wave? Does this seems to result in horrible accidents due to their lack of familiarity with how to fly a pinnace?

For that matter, where exactly do you think the armor platoon of a marine battalion on an amphib in the western pacific practices fire and maneuver? How about an infantry company deliberate attack exercise?

No, these are done in training areas, with reinforcement via simulators when possible. People really don't forget how to shoot or fly in a few weeks if you really have been trained to the level where you should be.

And for small arms (or even pulse rifle) firing practice we have no reason to think that the Roland's designers omitted the firing lanes that were standard on other RMN warships - where any naval crewman can practice anything from dueling pistols to (IIRC) pulse rifles.

That's where the Rolands naval ratings, who are to some degree cross trained for boarding actions, or away missions, would do their live fire practice.

Now given the miniscule crew compliment of the Roland it may only be a couple firing lanes, so scheduling the extra Marines through might be annoying.


As an aside - it's probably not long enough to serve as a good rifle range without some computer simulation / support. But it should be easy enough to do something like a holo target pretending to be 200+ yards past backstop and a computer able to extrapolate from where the rounds hit the grav stop to show the virtual remainder of their trajectory.