What did Captain Zavala do next? and the SL's reaction.

JeffEngel wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Courvosier wouldn't have been aboard a destroyer if a ship with a flag deck (only Fearless had one) was available. He had no business being on a ship that small; flag ships for such smaller combatants were so scarce they were using Star Knights for it in the first war. That was why they built them into the Rolands. Just why the Avalon's didn't get them is a bit less comprehensible, to me.

I think the Avalon designers wanted to got for a more conventional approach all around in case the Saganami-C and Roland's more radical moves failed somehow. Also, based on size, they may have figured on mixed Roland/Avalon squadrons, and tapped the Rolands for flag duty.

And the Rolands do have the space for Marines; just clear out the mostly unused flag deck facilities.

Regards

Rob

Opinions vary on how well that will work. I'm not sure the "no problem at all!" and "it must not and can never happen!" ends of the spectrum are actually represented by anyone. I'm somewhere in the "doable expedient in a pinch; don't expect it to be ideal" middle.

Avalons (and Wolfhounds) were based on the design studies for the Sag-B, the Mk14/Mk36 ERM missiles, and likely pre-dated the completion of the Sag-C/Roland design study by several years. The great delay in getting them built and deployed is due to the Janacek Admiralty's stupidity. Or cupidity. The design studies were likely initiated in the Mourncreek Admiralty, even before Buttercup. They looked at the new Ghost Rider tech, and decided to adapt it to the needs of their light ships, after they got enough of the other new ship types built (Medusas and Minotaurs).

With Janacek in place, getting anything new past him was an exercise in ego-based politics.

If Janacek had actually built the 400 destroyers to replace older DDs and CLs, along with getting the Bravos deployed earlier to replace the Prince Consorts he was taking out of service, he could have drastically improved the shiplist and firepower, while reducing manning.

That would have required Sir Edward to be something less stupid than a brick, however.

Rob

--snip--

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:...That would have required Sir Edward to be something less stupid than a brick, however.

Rob

I don't think Janacek was unintelligent. I think he was totally corrupt, aided and abetted both by the North Hollow gang, Descroix, and High Ridge, and when his shenanighans were detected, he suicided to avoid being disgraced first before he was shot.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I think the Avalon designers wanted to got for a more conventional approach all around in case the Saganami-C and Roland's more radical moves failed somehow. Also, based on size, they may have figured on mixed Roland/Avalon squadrons, and tapped the Rolands for flag duty.

Avalons (and Wolfhounds) were based on the design studies for the Sag-B, the Mk14/Mk36 ERM missiles, and likely pre-dated the completion of the Sag-C/Roland design study by several years.

Thanks, I hadn't realized they were essentially an older generation that arrived late instead of just looking like that.

The great delay in getting them built and deployed is due to the Janacek Admiralty's stupidity. Or cupidity. The design studies were likely initiated in the Mourncreek Admiralty, even before Buttercup. They looked at the new Ghost Rider tech, and decided to adapt it to the needs of their light ships, after they got enough of the other new ship types built (Medusas and Minotaurs).

With Janacek in place, getting anything new past him was an exercise in ego-based politics.

If Janacek had actually built the 400 destroyers to replace older DDs and CLs, along with getting the Bravos deployed earlier to replace the Prince Consorts he was taking out of service, he could have drastically improved the shiplist and firepower, while reducing manning.

That would have required Sir Edward to be something less stupid than a brick, however.

Rob

Echoing the not-stupidity attribution there - it'd also have taken a lot of funding that was being sent elsewhere, either out of the Navy or into pork-barrel inefficient naval spending.

SharkHunter wrote:Right, but when you have 5 Rolands in formation (Saltash) and only one Commodore aboard (Zavala, etc.), you don't need those quarters, offices, etc. on a particular mission. So I think everyone is arguing that they could bunker enough marines, etc. in the unused spaces on the other four ships to accompany any mission. Yes, guys and gals?

Yes. You should be able fit at least a squad+ for a long period of time (semi-permanently) and a platoon+ for a short period (like a month). Heck, you could bunk a squad in just the squadron COs quarters.

We've already determined that the floor loading of honorverse ships is suitable to hold 500x the usual load, so there is no major problem with storing battle armor lockers or ordinance lockers in something like a conference room in the flag space, you just have to park the conference tables and chairs somewhere and lock the door.

kzt wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Right, but when you have 5 Rolands in formation (Saltash) and only one Commodore aboard (Zavala, etc.), you don't need those quarters, offices, etc. on a particular mission. So I think everyone is arguing that they could bunker enough marines, etc. in the unused spaces on the other four ships to accompany any mission. Yes, guys and gals?

Yes. You should be able fit at least a squad+ for a long period of time (semi-permanently) and a platoon+ for a short period (like a month). Heck, you could bunk a squad in just the squadron COs quarters.

We've already determined that the floor loading of honorverse ships is suitable to hold 500x the usual load, so there is no major problem with storing battle armor lockers or ordinance lockers in something like a conference room in the flag space, you just have to park the conference tables and chairs somewhere and lock the door.

Traditional security concerns are not likely satisfied by locking that door, and the conference room won't have the tools for support. So it's going to take a little more than that to make it not a really twitchy make-do arrangement.

I was thinking they may be able to shift some stuff around, so that you could put the battle armor and weapons in some other part of the ship that's better for security and maintenance of them, and move some of that stuff around - add steps as needed - until the last of it is moved into the various flag staff spaces. It's more involved but the end result is likely more satisfying. A less twitchy make-do arrangement.

As I understand it, the Rolands weren't really intended to be deployed independently for any extended period of time, but have proven a bit more useful in contexts like the League where the tech is rather badly lagging than anticipated. Given their limited missile loads, it seems to me that rather than cramming Marines into a Roland, it would make more sense not to send them out solo, but in divisional strength accompanied by fast transport carrying both the Marines and the additional pods a mission might require.

Don

n7axw wrote:As I understand it, the Rolands weren't really intended to be deployed independently for any extended period of time, but have proven a bit more useful in contexts like the League where the tech is rather badly lagging than anticipated. Given their limited missile loads, it seems to me that rather than cramming Marines into a Roland, it would make more sense not to send them out solo, but in divisional strength accompanied by fast transport carrying both the Marines and the additional pods a mission might require.

Don

Or pair them with another unit that's less useful for the ship-to-ship work but can provide more crew/Marine space. In effect, find work for the disappointing late CL designs and older cruisers/destroyers helping cover the Roland's weak points.

n7axw wrote:As I understand it, the Rolands weren't really intended to be deployed independently for any extended period of time, but have proven a bit more useful in contexts like the League where the tech is rather badly lagging than anticipated. Given their limited missile loads, it seems to me that rather than cramming Marines into a Roland, it would make more sense not to send them out solo, but in divisional strength accompanied by fast transport carrying both the Marines and the additional pods a mission might require.

Don

I have wasted endless amounts of time speculating on destroyers.

The destroyer has limited endurance, but it is frequently deployed on 'show the flag' sort of missions. It is worth noting that the RMN was training their pre-war generation of officers in small-ship realities using frigates, for their endurance; according to HoS, they preferred frigates and (mostly) heavy cruisers as the bulk of their light warships; prior to construction of the Courageous class, they hadn't had more than 3 squadrons of light cruisers in commission.

Rolands do have a limited missile load of 240 Mk-16 missiles. But the Apollo cruiser (with 14 tubes) carried only 20 missiles per tube, or 280 missiles. And, they didn't have the same range, off bore firing, or the ability to punch out armored capital ships--they were destroyer grade missiles.

Given the large numbers of Apollos--and the Chanson destroyers, are still in service-- it doesn't seem like an under-armed destroyer. Even if it is 60K tons heavier than the other almost-as-new destroyer, and 40K tons heavier than the current in-service light cruiser.

Rob

SharkHunter wrote:--snip--

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:...That would have required Sir Edward to be something less stupid than a brick, however.

Rob

I don't think Janacek was unintelligent. I think he was totally corrupt, aided and abetted both by the North Hollow gang, Descroix, and High Ridge, and when his shenanighans were detected, he suicided to avoid being disgraced first before he was shot.

Being intelligent does not preclude stupidity.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

n7axw wrote:As I understand it, the Rolands weren't really intended to be deployed independently for any extended period of time, but have proven a bit more useful in contexts like the League where the tech is rather badly lagging than anticipated. Given their limited missile loads, it seems to me that rather than cramming Marines into a Roland, it would make more sense not to send them out solo, but in divisional strength accompanied by fast transport carrying both the Marines and the additional pods a mission might require.

Don

I have wasted endless amounts of time speculating on destroyers.

The destroyer has limited endurance, but it is frequently deployed on 'show the flag' sort of missions. It is worth noting that the RMN was training their pre-war generation of officers in small-ship realities using frigates, for their endurance; according to HoS, they preferred frigates and (mostly) heavy cruisers as the bulk of their light warships; prior to construction of the Courageous class, they hadn't had more than 3 squadrons of light cruisers in commission.

Rolands do have a limited missile load of 240 Mk-16 missiles. But the Apollo cruiser (with 14 tubes) carried only 20 missiles per tube, or 280 missiles. And, they didn't have the same range, off bore firing, or the ability to punch out armored capital ships--they were destroyer grade missiles.

Given the large numbers of Apollos--and the Chanson destroyers, are still in service-- it doesn't seem like an under-armed destroyer. Even if it is 60K tons heavier than the other almost-as-new destroyer, and 40K tons heavier than the current in-service light cruiser.

Rob

I think they built the Roland as a destroyer and meant it as one, and find themselves using it as a light cruiser - in part because they do need it for light cruiser duty (which in today's RMN, includes eating battlecruisers as needed, and eyeing Solly SD's with a certain hungry curiosity). They need it for the light cruiser duty because they've got so very many light cruiser missions, and the newest CL's proper are disappointments.