What if: Alternate Universe

Commodore Oakius wrote:

SWM wrote:Oakius,

The entire history would be different, because the Mesan Alignment's plans would be very different. The Alignment didn't push Haven into fighting because Haven was getting too big. It goes much further back. The Alignment pushed Haven into becoming a welfare state nightmare, with the deliberate intention of forcing Haven to expand and eventually become a threat to the Solarian League. That was how they planned to cause the breakup of the League.

If Haven didn't become a welfare state, then the Mesan Alignment must have come up with a completely different plan.

I don't think it is possible to infer what would have happened. You're basically saying that history has been completely different since 1680, and the Alignment has been doing something completely different. All we can do is pure unsupported speculation from there.

I am not disagreeing but could you tell me where it was revealed that the MA pushed Haven into the welfare nightmare? Don't remember reading that, but I could have forgotten it.

It comes from some posts David made in the forums years ago. I don't remember whether he explicitly stated it or merely hinted strongly at it. I think he explicitly stated it as he explained how far-reaching the Alignment's plans were.

--snipping--

SWM wrote:

Commodore Oakius wrote:...
I am not disagreeing but could you tell me where it was revealed that the MA pushed Haven into the welfare nightmare? Don't remember reading that, but I could have forgotten it.

It comes from some posts David made in the forums years ago. I don't remember whether he explicitly stated it or merely hinted strongly at it. I think he explicitly stated it as he explained how far-reaching the Alignment's plans were.

That plus this textev, bolding mine:

Mission of Honor, ch.40 wrote:"Think about it," he told the others. "If they're willing to approach something like this on a generational basis—if their strategists at any given moment have been willing to work towards something that's not going to happen until their grandchildren's or their great-grandchildren's time—think about the kinds of covers they could build for their agents. We could be looking at twenty or thirty generations of sleepers, for God's sake! There could be people right here in Nouveau Paris, people whose families have been solid citizens of the Republic for three or four hundred years, who are actually part of this Alignment. Think about the kind of intelligence penetration that implies. Or about how long and subtly they could work on influencing political trends and policies. Or the media."

The others weren't looking confused anymore. In fact, all three of them were rather pale as Theisman's implications sank home.
"You're right," Pritchart agreed. "On the other hand, let's not get too carried away. They may think they're superwomen, but I don't see why we should start thinking of them that way. I don't doubt they could do exactly what you're describing, Tom. In fact, that may well be what they did to the Old Republic.

War or the threat of war always brings massive innovation. Look at the years before WWII Robert Goddard the inventor of liquid fueled rockets was considered a crank by the US Military and was IIRC physically thrown out of the War Department in 1934. Frank Whittle the inventor of the jet engine was also considered a crank by the RAF in early 1930's. What would WWII have looked like if these gentlemen had been given more research funds. IIRC Goddard did about 90% of his research work with a $300,000 grant from the Guggenheim foundation. He was so strapped for money he had to salvage and recycle his crashed rockets.

Sharkhunter, your excerpt is appropriate but is part of their discussion of McBride's revelation (as passed on by Cachat and Zilwicki) that the MA masterminded the rise of the Legislaturalists. I don't have time right now to find that passage in Crown of Slaves, but it was quite explicit.

Basically, their actions in Haven were designed first to test their techniques for subverting foreign governments and second, to set up the PRH as their stalking horse when it came time to bring down the Solarian League.

It is clear that the MA had no idea Manticore could build enough of a tech advantage to actually defeat the PRH. But they are "almost" as good at improvising as Cachat.

SharkHunter]
[quote="Mission of Honor, ch.40 wrote:"Think about it," he told the others. "If they're willing to approach something like this on a generational basis—if their strategists at any given moment have been willing to work towards something that's not going to happen until their grandchildren's or their great-grandchildren's time—think about the kinds of covers they could build for their agents. We could be looking at twenty or thirty generations of sleepers, for God's sake! There could be people right here in Nouveau Paris, people whose families have been solid citizens of the Republic for three or four hundred years, who are actually part of this Alignment. Think about the kind of intelligence penetration that implies. Or about how long and subtly they could work on influencing political trends and policies. Or the media."

The others weren't looking confused anymore. In fact, all three of them were rather pale as Theisman's implications sank home.
"You're right," Pritchart agreed. "On the other hand, let's not get too carried away. They may think they're superwomen, but I don't see why we should start thinking of them that way. I don't doubt they could do exactly what you're describing, Tom. In fact, that may well be what they did to the Old Republic.

[/quote]

Thank you Sharkhunter.
That is supposition I feel Pritchart threw off the cuff, but I do see it could be foreshadowing or a part of the puzzle. But the phrase "may well" gives be the thin moral ground to base my argument that there is no proof. In fact there is a prior time where the New Republic thought their unlamented sec. of state, Arnold Gincola, was in the MA's employee, and the MA found out about it, and Debtwielers denied it.
Now, SWM may be right, that it is in RFC's posts in the past, and I am not asking anyone to go digging, but I would be interested in seeing them. I am going to go back to the pearls myself and dig around.
That all being said, I admit that my thought is based on the idea that the the Old Republic became the welfare state on its own, and the MA used it to be a foil to the Solarian Leauge, and as looksbeforeheleaps said, they didn't predict the rise of Manticore, because at the time there was no wormhole junction discovered, and just adapted to it. However, if the MA did push the Old Republic into the welfare state, to spur such adventurism in the Republic, then my concept is totally baseless because they set it up.
Upon additional consideration though, if the MA did influence the OR, why push them to a welfare state? Would it not be better to push them into an Empire stance, one which the milatary would have been forefront, but without the risk to run their puppet nation into financial ruin before their plans can to fruition by using the BLS? I'll agree the conquests came from a need to fuel the BLS, but couldn't the conquests just as easily come from a source of national pride, instigated by the MA? The MA manipulates the feelings of the entire SL with planted newsies, manipulating the OR in its smaller status would have been a bit easier.
I just can't see the MA, with all of their complex planning and shrewdness, pushing the OR into the welfare state, which was constantly on the verge of bankrupcy and collapse, to stand agaisnt the SL, to give them the external threat they needed to have the RF pull out of the SL. I would think a solvent government, with a fully funded milatary and R&D, on an aggressive empire's mind set would do the job better.
But then again, thats just by 52 cents.

Commodore Oakius wrote:.
That all being said, I admit that my thought is based on the idea that the the Old Republic became the welfare state on its own, and the MA used it to be a foil to the Solarian Leauge, and as looksbeforeheleaps said, they didn't predict the rise of Manticore, because at the time there was no wormhole junction discovered, and just adapted to it. However, if the MA did push the Old Republic into the welfare state, to spur such adventurism in the Republic, then my concept is totally baseless because they set it up.
Upon additional consideration though, if the MA did influence the OR, why push them to a welfare state? Would it not be better to push them into an Empire stance, one which the milatary would have been forefront, but without the risk to run their puppet nation into financial ruin before their plans can to fruition by using the BLS? I'll agree the conquests came from a need to fuel the BLS, but couldn't the conquests just as easily come from a source of national pride, instigated by the MA? The MA manipulates the feelings of the entire SL with planted newsies, manipulating the OR in its smaller status would have been a bit easier.
I just can't see the MA, with all of their complex planning and shrewdness, pushing the OR into the welfare state, which was constantly on the verge of bankrupcy and collapse, to stand agaisnt the SL, to give them the external threat they needed to have the RF pull out of the SL. I would think a solvent government, with a fully funded milatary and R&D, on an aggressive empire's mind set would do the job better.
But then again, thats just by 52 cents.

Well remember that while the MAlign needs somebody big enough to stress the Legue into fracturing; they need that somebody to be warm enough to not themselves be a threat to the RA worlds. And to be unattractive enough that they won't be a nucleus around which competitor fragments if the Legue might stabilize to resist the RA worlds.


So it's definitely a balancing act. But the bottomless hike if a welfare state makes for a built in weakness that the MAlign could use, if necessary. A strong proud economically vibrant empire could be much harder to "turn off" when it had done its job.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Commodore Oakius wrote:Upon additional consideration though, if the MA did influence the OR, why push them to a welfare state? Would it not be better to push them into an Empire stance, one which the milatary would have been forefront, but without the risk to run their puppet nation into financial ruin before their plans can to fruition by using the BLS? I'll agree the conquests came from a need to fuel the BLS, but couldn't the conquests just as easily come from a source of national pride, instigated by the MA? The MA manipulates the feelings of the entire SL with planted newsies, manipulating the OR in its smaller status would have been a bit easier.
I just can't see the MA, with all of their complex planning and shrewdness, pushing the OR into the welfare state, which was constantly on the verge of bankrupcy and collapse, to stand agaisnt the SL, to give them the external threat they needed to have the RF pull out of the SL. I would think a solvent government, with a fully funded milatary and R&D, on an aggressive empire's mind set would do the job better.
But then again, thats just by 52 cents.

Well remember that while the MAlign needs somebody big enough to stress the Legue into fracturing; they need that somebody to be warm enough to not themselves be a threat to the RA worlds. And to be unattractive enough that they won't be a nucleus around which competitor fragments if the Legue might stabilize to resist the RA worlds.


So it's definitely a balancing act. But the bottomless hike if a welfare state makes for a built in weakness that the MAlign could use, if necessary. A strong proud economically vibrant empire could be much harder to "turn off" when it had done its job.

Haven was the Athens of the Stars, a bright shining beacon of hope. It was an easy move from that to "you're free from the burden of working!"... and from there to being free of the option to work, to get an education, to move out, to participate in politics, etc. It would not have been an easy move from the Athens of the Stars to "all your planets are belong to us!" But crippling Haven's ability to produce what it came to accept it needed domestically, consistent with the keeping of the feckless angry mob it created, was something they could bring about in small steps.

Haven had to be rendered unable to avoid being an endlessly conquistador state. It had to become a ravening, unstoppable appetite that could threaten the League but never be an attractive rival.

JeffEngel wrote:SNIP

Haven had to be rendered unable to avoid being an endlessly conquistador state. It had to become a ravening, unstoppable appetite that could threaten the League but never be an attractive rival.

I see your point and the logic does track. I still would like to see the statment from RFC that was mentioned before. I still think a strong military state that runs head long into the SL would have been better. The RF wanted logical reason to seperate itself from the SL and war with a ravenous conquistador state that threatened them doesn't seem to give them the moral high ground needed to succeed from the SL. Then again war with a militarisic state wouldn't either. I just find it hard to see the logic behind pushing the Havenite into a welfare state. to use as a foil against the SL, except the extreme misdirection, which of course is what Mesa is all about lol. It just seems to risky of a propersition, the who thing could come crumbling down. In fact it did, but it was replaced by a power structure that was worse, is anything, and definatley not better, until genuine reform came with the Theisman coup and Pritchert revival of the Consitution. That could have happened with McQueen, if things had gone differently. Pierre could have done it too, if he hadn't replaced desire for BLS increases with the bloodlust of the mob and the hatred of their class enemies, thank you very much Ms. Ransom.

JeffEngel wrote:Haven was the Athens of the Stars, a bright shining beacon of hope. It was an easy move from that to "you're free from the burden of working!"... and from there to being free of the option to work, to get an education, to move out, to participate in politics, etc. It would not have been an easy move from the Athens of the Stars to "all your planets are belong to us!" But crippling Haven's ability to produce what it came to accept it needed domestically, consistent with the keeping of the feckless angry mob it created, was something they could bring about in small steps.

Haven had to be rendered unable to avoid being an endlessly conquistador state. It had to become a ravening, unstoppable appetite that could threaten the League but never be an attractive rival.

Basically all of this.

There was no conceivable way to turn the Old Republic, Péricard's shining interstellar beacon of democracy, learning, and light, into a military, conquering empire. No way. No way at all. The MA had to work with what they had, and what they had was quite possibly the greatest democracy then extant in known space, with an incredibly high standard of living and institutions of learning that rivalled Old Earth. How do you turn that into a conquering juggernaut? You give it no other options.

So the welfare state, once a social safety net designed to help those fallen on hard times, became a way of life. So education became less prized, so the economy began to crumble - and so the only option was to turn to conquest to keep the coffers from standing empty.

So the Old Republic became the People's Republic. So the President of the Republic of Haven became the Hereditary President of the People's Republic. And so the Legislaturalists, a concept once anathema to everything the Athens of the Stars stood for, became the government.

And so the shining beacon went dark.

Thank God for Thomas Theisman, Eloise Pritchart, Javier Giscard, Shannon Foraker, Lester Tourville, Denis LePic, Everard Honeker, Alfredo Yu, and Warner Caslet.

And thank God for rebirth.

From the ashes, we will rise.

And so they did.

The beacon is relit at last. A small flame still, but growing brighter every day.

Soon enough, the Athens of the Stars will illuminate the galaxy again. But this time, it will not be the only flame in the darkness.

The plan seemed to be that the SL would have shattered like glass once it became obvious that a) The SLN was incapable of stopping the peeps due to both incompetence and wholesale obsolescence, b) That the corrupt SL government had no willingness to do what was needed to do to protect the SL or reform the SLN, and c) That the various SDFs that the MA controlled were competent and able to stop the Peeps, and if you worked with them they could keep you safe.