RFC's take on what the Royal Torch Navy might need...

stewart wrote:As much as I am hesitant to suggest it but here the Skimper might have a point --

From his post


14 AMC still sit in mothballs. Add in 168 series 282 LAC or Series 282 Shrike D. Whatever that is, and Torch has all the raiders it could ever want. Fast Freighters and keyhole I with MK16 or MK36 Pods. 180 pods with 14 to 25 missiles per pod would go a long way to adding punch to the Torch Forces. What kind of missiles do their frigates use?


The AMC's like Wayfarer fit a similar mission to Ganny El's tramp freighter, but on steroids for weapons.
Only real question is are the LAC Bay hatches large enough for an export version Shrike (they were fitted for the un-named Type 282 trialed in HAE)

As a carrier for Shrikes or frigates they could fit Torch's current military strike mission while Carluchi of Erehwon builds new purpose built.

Could they be surplussed ? if unmodified from the approx. 1905-1910 usage, they might even be at "export technology" levels as they are in mothballs...

-- Stewart

The AMCs take 3,000 crew each to man. Not a huge problem for a navy with millions of spacers and mainline battle units carrying 5,000+ souls - although it was still a problem.

But for a single AMC, the RTN could man three of their "new" heavy cruisers or all six of their light cruisers or ten of the destroyers captured from the People's Navy in Exile. Granted, none of them quite have the firepower of a Trojan, but better defenses and protection make up for this, not to mention being able to be in more than one place.

They can already use a normal freighter as a piggyback for their frigates when they need camouflage. Torch needs attack units, not anti-raider units.

It all depends on the answers to the following questions:

What is your mission?

What are your resources/assets?

What is the end result you desire?

The RTN mission is (IMHO) to (1) Protect Torch (2) Carry out attacks on Mesan assets, especially where slaves are involved. Equipment needs to be considered based on those two primary missions.

For planetary defense getting the heavier PNE ships upgraded and returned, (along with what I presume will be training conducted by RHN personnel), combined with as many DDM/MDM pods as they can get their hands on, and treaties with various other polities (Maya, Erewhon, Haven, Manticore) that may allow for more...substantial...ships to be based around Torch.

For the attacking portion, you have the frigates, which while unable to stand up to any fleet units, can still capture any non-escorted Mesan ship. Attacks on more well-defended areas (like that station on Kuy mentioned in CoS), may require more firepower, and I am not sure a mini-CLAC would do so. I am intrigued by the suggestion of Torch getting some of the old "Wayfarer" ships, given that the pack quite a punch along with their LACS. But they are also quite vunerable, and using them in a formal 'attack' is risky. Better to buy a few SAG-C's or Nike's if you're going to be doing attacks on fortified bases.

As for resources/assets, Torch has the makings of an good balance of trade and a fairly robust economy, but few trained spacers outside of the frigates. The citizenry, however, is Motivated to learn, possibly moreso than any other in history (slavery plus an attempted genocide will do that). So I expect that students have been flocking to classes organized by RHN/RMN, and Erewhon Naval types and bearing down on their studies. It may be some time before they have enough trained, but like I said, these folks are motivated.

The end result is the end of Manpower/Mesa as a slave-producing society (which has been accomplished as of CoG) and the eventual freedom of all slaves in Known Space (which may take a little time).

So goals/assets/end result desired...all these have to be taken into consideration in terms of the type of space force you're going to have.

And yes, given the general intelligence and knowledge of the posters here, I am probably preaching to the choir...but what the heck, I felt like being Captain Obvious today....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Do the HMAMC's still exist as of PD 1922? I'm not sure why the RMN would have not already scrapped them because of the survivability question and the fact that they were pre-Mark-16's with the cargo door problems, etc., plus the lack of automation forcing larger crew size compared to newer ships.

My "mini-LAC" option (if RFC was going have Erewhon build it...) would fit in a roughly Nike size hull form. Back-of the envelope calculating, I think they might be able to mount roughly the missile firepower of a Sag-C* with a contingent of maybe a 12-18 mixed role LACs and a plentiful amount of Marine boarding and planetary drop/landing capability.

*Given that CLACs, AMC's and marine assault ships have no business in a missile heavy dustup, the only reason I include missiles is to keep the ship(s) from being jumped during combat operations, by the way.

As always, YMMV and curiosity about y'all's thoughts...

SharkHunter wrote:Do the HMAMC's still exist as of PD 1922? I'm not sure why the RMN would have not already scrapped them because of the survivability question and the fact that they were pre-Mark-16's with the cargo door problems, etc., plus the lack of automation forcing larger crew size compared to newer ships.

I'm thinking if they did decide they wanted a Q-ship along the lines of the old Wayfarer (and I don't know that they do) that they'd be better off thanking a little time and getting someone like Erewhon and/or Haven to build one with BC level armor (like Sirus had back in OBS), better defenses, redundancy, and damage control optimization, and crew automation. If they want one they shouldn't have the same emergency time pressure that cause Manticore to slap the Wayfarers together largely out of what they had excess components for. (SD weight grasers because production was running ahead of SD build rates, pods because they had a ton of them, etc)

Jonathan_S wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Do the HMAMC's still exist as of PD 1922? I'm not sure why the RMN would have not already scrapped them because of the survivability question and the fact that they were pre-Mark-16's with the cargo door problems, etc., plus the lack of automation forcing larger crew size compared to newer ships.

I'm thinking if they did decide they wanted a Q-ship along the lines of the old Wayfarer (and I don't know that they do) that they'd be better off thanking a little time and getting someone like Erewhon and/or Haven to build one with BC level armor (like Sirus had back in OBS), better defenses, redundancy, and damage control optimization, and crew automation. If they want one they shouldn't have the same emergency time pressure that cause Manticore to slap the Wayfarers together largely out of what they had excess components for. (SD weight grasers because production was running ahead of SD build rates, pods because they had a ton of them, etc)

In the meantime, Torch may want to look for a used fast minelayer or 2. They usually are BC sized and have CA/BC defenses and ECM and fairly small crews. Throw in whatever retrofits may be necessary to drop pods instead of mines and (MAYBE) carry 2-4 LACS. It's not the best solution, but it would allow a fast ammo ship that can keep up with Torch's light units and (maybe) drop some LACS as a force multiplier.

Theemile wrote:In the meantime, Torch may want to look for a used fast minelayer or 2. They usually are BC sized and have CA/BC defenses and ECM and fairly small crews. Throw in whatever retrofits may be necessary to drop pods instead of mines and (MAYBE) carry 2-4 LACS. It's not the best solution, but it would allow a fast ammo ship that can keep up with Torch's light units and (maybe) drop some LACS as a force multiplier.

Ok, then you need ships which can control all those missiles. And if you're doing that, then you've basically just rebuilt the Maya Sector's secret navy.

Duckk wrote:

Theemile wrote:In the meantime, Torch may want to look for a used fast minelayer or 2. They usually are BC sized and have CA/BC defenses and ECM and fairly small crews. Throw in whatever retrofits may be necessary to drop pods instead of mines and (MAYBE) carry 2-4 LACS. It's not the best solution, but it would allow a fast ammo ship that can keep up with Torch's light units and (maybe) drop some LACS as a force multiplier.

Ok, then you need ships which can control all those missiles. And if you're doing that, then you've basically just rebuilt the Maya Sector's secret navy.

Given that they're now allies to each other (Erewhon/Torch/Maya), that seems like a reasonable proposition, it's just the snippet from RFC added in that's a curiouser and curiouser idea.

Duckk wrote:

Theemile wrote:In the meantime, Torch may want to look for a used fast minelayer or 2. They usually are BC sized and have CA/BC defenses and ECM and fairly small crews. Throw in whatever retrofits may be necessary to drop pods instead of mines and (MAYBE) carry 2-4 LACS. It's not the best solution, but it would allow a fast ammo ship that can keep up with Torch's light units and (maybe) drop some LACS as a force multiplier.

Ok, then you need ships which can control all those missiles. And if you're doing that, then you've basically just rebuilt the Maya Sector's secret navy.

Torch already has the Ex-PRN ships and the frigates that are the shooters - Personally, I'm just thinking of a fast fleet support ship that would do a similiar job to what Volcano did for Terekhov - dump the full pod loads for the shooters at the hyperlimit and then boogy. If it can haul a couple of LACS - all the much the better.

As for the secret navy, the Masquarades proved their liability - Civilian designs with no armoring scheme and few backup systems (or defenses for that matter) are an issue. Yes, I know there will be Defensive system Modules on the way, but it still will be a poor fit to a properly designed mil system.

Since Fast Minelayers can usually defend themselves against a light threat, (and are designed to survive a hit or 2) they might be a better solution for Torch than a Masquarade.

Personally, I see 2 separate needs here - Maya has the Masquarades because it needs podlaying systems NOW, but can't show it's hand until it's powerful enough, so it builds what are legally freighters that it can easily bolt systems onto (and unbolt those system when done), So they are willing to trade military capability for availability. Torch needs a cheap, manpower light solution to it's Power Projection (light) problem. It has ships that can get it's Frigates in close, but needs a long range support ship to prolong and enhance operations. It doesn't need a hidden solution, or a scraped together solution, but a good, long term fleet unit.

--snipping--

Theemile wrote:...Since Fast Minelayers can usually defend themselves against a light threat, (and are designed to survive a hit or 2) they might be a better solution for Torch than a Masquarade.

The light bulb just went on. It wouldn't be DDM's, it would be MDM's, but the action at Solon showed that the RHN does have fast minelayers that use pods instead. Given that Haven and Erewhon are sort of buddies, and Torch is their new and futurely awesome step-child, that bears thinking about!

I picture Sharon Justice dialing up Kevin Usher and asking him to ask Eloise to ask Tom to ask Shannon if they'll sell them a few...

Hutch wrote:It all depends on the answers to the following questions:

What is your mission?

What are your resources/assets?

What is the end result you desire?

The RTN mission is (IMHO) to (1) Protect Torch (2) Carry out attacks on Mesan assets, especially where slaves are involved. Equipment needs to be considered based on those two primary missions.

For planetary defense getting the heavier PNE ships upgraded and returned, (along with what I presume will be training conducted by RHN personnel), combined with as many DDM/MDM pods as they can get their hands on, and treaties with various other polities (Maya, Erewhon, Haven, Manticore) that may allow for more...substantial...ships to be based around Torch.

For the attacking portion, you have the frigates, which while unable to stand up to any fleet units, can still capture any non-escorted Mesan ship. Attacks on more well-defended areas (like that station on Kuy mentioned in CoS), may require more firepower, and I am not sure a mini-CLAC would do so. I am intrigued by the suggestion of Torch getting some of the old "Wayfarer" ships, given that the pack quite a punch along with their LACS. But they are also quite vunerable, and using them in a formal 'attack' is risky. Better to buy a few SAG-C's or Nike's if you're going to be doing attacks on fortified bases.

As for resources/assets, Torch has the makings of an good balance of trade and a fairly robust economy, but few trained spacers outside of the frigates. The citizenry, however, is Motivated to learn, possibly moreso than any other in history (slavery plus an attempted genocide will do that). So I expect that students have been flocking to classes organized by RHN/RMN, and Erewhon Naval types and bearing down on their studies. It may be some time before they have enough trained, but like I said, these folks are motivated.

The end result is the end of Manpower/Mesa as a slave-producing society (which has been accomplished as of CoG) and the eventual freedom of all slaves in Known Space (which may take a little time).

So goals/assets/end result desired...all these have to be taken into consideration in terms of the type of space force you're going to have.

And yes, given the general intelligence and knowledge of the posters here, I am probably preaching to the choir...but what the heck, I felt like being Captain Obvious today....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Right. I for one will be relieved when those PNE ships are back and in place to booster the defenses. I wonder if Haven will come up with some "loaner" personal to assist in training duties the way Manticore did for its smaller allies in the past.

Don