Operation Sanskrit - a minor doubt

Jonathan_S wrote:You probably couldn't have hidden the fact that something new was going on; but you could have avoided the "clumping" behavior by simply not launching the Apollo Control Missiles from the pod. Treat each launch as an 8 missile pod.

That would leave Haven wondering why Manticore suddenly had 2 less missiles per pod, but it wouldn't shout "FTL control" to them.


Alternatively you could launch Apollo but use it under light-speed control (as was later done at Spindle), which would be appear a little more capable than the pre-Apollo missiles (especially if you didn't exploit the 8x control multiplier it gave you). Enough to justify the change, but not enough to be truly panic inducing.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Apollo had the sub light links left in. Just use them. As RHN already had used the one control missile to control more missiles, doing so with sub light comms doesn't given anything away.

Jonathan_S wrote:When did the RHN do that? I know they used rotating control links - but that's totally different than using 1 missile as a control hub for multiple other missiles.

Theisman planned on using it as a defense at Barnard in the first Haven war. I think I remember it being used elsewhere as well, but I don't remember exactly which book.

Jonathan_S wrote:]You probably couldn't have hidden the fact that something new was going on; but you could have avoided the "clumping" behavior by simply not launching the Apollo Control Missiles from the pod. Treat each launch as an 8 missile pod.

That would leave Haven wondering why Manticore suddenly had 2 less missiles per pod, but it wouldn't shout "FTL control" to them.

That is what I was getting at.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:When did the RHN do that? I know they used rotating control links - but that's totally different than using 1 missile as a control hub for multiple other missiles.

Theisman planned on using it as a defense at Barnard in the first Haven war. I think I remember it being used elsewhere as well, but I don't remember exactly which book.

The keyword to search for there is 'cascade', by which Theisman had come up with a way for his forts to allocate one fire control channel to an entire pod of missiles, rather than one per missile. IIRC, this was only done with his forts, but I can't recall why conventional Navy units weren't doing it.

munroburton wrote:The keyword to search for there is 'cascade', by which Theisman had come up with a way for his forts to allocate one fire control channel to an entire pod of missiles, rather than one per missile. IIRC, this was only done with his forts, but I can't recall why conventional Navy units weren't doing it.

Torch of Freedom wrote:Rozsak was wrong, in at least one respect; he wasn't the first tactician to come up with the same idea. Admiral Shannon Foraker had beaten him to it, although Rozsak could certainly be excused for being unaware of the fact.

He had three times as many missiles as he had control links, even with his surviving destroyers tied in. Given the toughness of their targets, and the defensive capability the enemy still possessed, sixty-missile salvos weren't going to be enough. Especially not when the missiles already in the pipeline were all he was going to get. Which was why Marksman was no longer controlling sixty missiles; she was controlling a hundred and eighty, and her wounded sisters, Ranger and Sharpshooter, were controlling another hundred and eighty.

The only way they could do it was by rotating each of their available command links through three separate missiles, and the degree of control they could exercise was significantly diminished. But "diminished" control was enormously better than no control at all.

IIRC, at the Battle of Manticore it states that the RHN could have controlled three times more missiles than they launched, using rotating control. So the big question is where is the reference to where Foraker first designed or used it...

Jonathan_S wrote:You probably couldn't have hidden the fact that something new was going on; but you could have avoided the "clumping" behavior by simply not launching the Apollo Control Missiles from the pod. Treat each launch as an 8 missile pod.

That would leave Haven wondering why Manticore suddenly had 2 less missiles per pod, but it wouldn't shout "FTL control" to them.


Alternatively you could launch Apollo but use it under light-speed control (as was later done at Spindle), which would be appear a little more capable than the pre-Apollo missiles (especially if you didn't exploit the 8x control multiplier it gave you). Enough to justify the change, but not enough to be truly panic inducing.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Apollo had the sub light links left in. Just use them. As RHN already had used the one control missile to control more missiles, doing so with sub light comms doesn't given anything away.

Jonathan_S wrote:When did the RHN do that? I know they used rotating control links - but that's totally different than using 1 missile as a control hub for multiple other missiles.

The Battle of Spindle, where Terekhov's and Tremaine's Saganami-C cruisers (12 in total) defeated (destroyed, mission-killed, or captured) 71 SLN SDs plus screen and Fleet Train, with the assistance of some RMN ammunition ships loaded with Apollo pods. Henke's Nike BCs didn't have to fire a shot.

Vince wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:You probably couldn't have hidden the fact that something new was going on; but you could have avoided the "clumping" behavior by simply not launching the Apollo Control Missiles from the pod. Treat each launch as an 8 missile pod.

That would leave Haven wondering why Manticore suddenly had 2 less missiles per pod, but it wouldn't shout "FTL control" to them.


Alternatively you could launch Apollo but use it under light-speed control (as was later done at Spindle), which would be appear a little more capable than the pre-Apollo missiles (especially if you didn't exploit the 8x control multiplier it gave you). Enough to justify the change, but not enough to be truly panic inducing.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Apollo had the sub light links left in. Just use them. As RHN already had used the one control missile to control more missiles, doing so with sub light comms doesn't given anything away.

Jonathan_S wrote:When did the RHN do that? I know they used rotating control links - but that's totally different than using 1 missile as a control hub for multiple other missiles.

The Battle of Spindle, where Terekhov's and Tremaine's Saganami-C cruisers (12 in total) defeated (destroyed, mission-killed, or captured) 71 SLN SDs plus screen and Fleet Train, with the assistance of some RMN ammunition ships loaded with Apollo pods. Henke's Nike BCs didn't have to fire a shot.

The question was not with reference to the sub light links on Apollo used by the Manticoran navy, but the Haven navy use of cascading links - using one missile to control many.

Well guys, you certainly answered my question.
And then some

Jonathan_S wrote:When did the RHN do that? I know they used rotating control links - but that's totally different than using 1 missile as a control hub for multiple other missiles.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Theisman planned on using it as a defense at Barnard in the first Haven war. I think I remember it being used elsewhere as well, but I don't remember exactly which book.

munroburton wrote:The keyword to search for there is 'cascade', by which Theisman had come up with a way for his forts to allocate one fire control channel to an entire pod of missiles, rather than one per missile. IIRC, this was only done with his forts, but I can't recall why conventional Navy units weren't doing it.

Thanks. I'd forgotten that.

Rereading the description from Ashes of Victory was a little odd, since it talks about the pod copying the targetting info to other pods (rather than missiles doing so). It almost sounds like a one-time update. But that's obviously not right because we're repeatedly told that the missiles need hand-holding for as long as possible -- so the "primary" pod's missiles must be "cascading" the targeting info the the 6 additional pod's missile mid-flight as well.


That does still sound less sophisticated that lightspeed Apollo (where the onboard AI of the control missile is customizing targeting, consolidating sensor readings, and coordinating ECM between it's brood of 8 attack/EMC birds). Because it sounds like a "dumb" copy; but even so an impressive early example of control link multiplication. (I do wonder if it was just a software mod) or if they had to bodge up some missile hardware changes to get it to work?)

Or are they literally "cloning" the missile's "ID" and staying close enough together than all 7 missiles (original + the cascaded 6) are within the beam path and can overhear the same transmissions from the fort's fire control? (That might explain the apparent "one time" nature of the update; after that the cascaded missiles might just be eavesdropping on updates intended for the primary missiles; from the main pod)

I have found myself wondering if revealing their new capabilities to Haven at Lovat wasn't a strategic error. I know that some of my reaction is hindsight given what happened with Beatrice. But prior to Buttercup, Manticore was careful to not reveal their new toys until they were ready to deliver a knockout punch. In retrospect that seems much wiser and had Apollo been widely deployed throughout the fleet and established in the system defense role, the story would have read a good deal differently. Eighth fleet could have visited Haven rather than Manticore being confronted with Beatrice.

Don

n7axw wrote:I have found myself wondering if revealing their new capabilities to Haven at Lovat wasn't a strategic error. I know that some of my reaction is hindsight given what happened with Beatrice. But prior to Buttercup, Manticore was careful to not reveal their new toys until they were ready to deliver a knockout punch. In retrospect that seems much wiser and had Apollo been widely deployed throughout the fleet and established in the system defense role, the story would have read a good deal differently. Eighth fleet could have visited Haven rather than Manticore being confronted with Beatrice.

Don

Of course what Manticore was worried about is that if Haven resumed the offensive in the next few months that they could roll up almost everything except maybe Trevor Star, the Home System, and Grayson (and I wouldn't count on holding Trevor's Star unless significantly reenforced from Home Fleet) before the Apollo pods could be deployed.

Leading up to Buttercup the Mantie's conventional forces had been winning (though were regrouping from siezing Trevor's Star) but there was little chance that Haven could make serious advances before the hardware was ready in sufficient quantity for a knockout blow.

With Sanscript/Cutworm Manticore was trying to distract Haven from launching new offenses; because their conventional units wouldn't have been able to contain that.


Now with the benefit of hindsight we can certainly think that Honor showed too much, she let them realize how screwed they'd be if they waited. But she'd get chewed up trying to raid without showing anything new - and without raids to keep Haven off balance you're back to losing most of your territory before you have a hope of getting (hopefully) decisive (but as yet untested in combat) hardware in place.

Jonathan_S wrote:Now with the benefit of hindsight we can certainly think that Honor showed too much, she let them realize how screwed they'd be if they waited. But she'd get chewed up trying to raid without showing anything new - and without raids to keep Haven off balance you're back to losing most of your territory before you have a hope of getting (hopefully) decisive (but as yet untested in combat) hardware in place.

There is also the point that others have brought up before, which is that if the raids are so important why are they not getting assigned sufficient and appropriate forces to do them with?