Will the RF really be all that hard to find?

Question: Is it even important to find the members of the RF? And, once you have found them, what can or should you do with them?

In other words, is the Beowulf code so vital to the Honorverse that no government angling for amendments to it can be tolerated? Because, at the end of the day, that's the basic tenet of the Mesan Alignment, the idea that humanity could be much better if it weren't for Beowulf holding things back; Is embarking on a crusade to enforce Beowulfan standards really a good thing?

Don't get me wrong, the Alignment (or, at least, its current crop of leaders) needs to be persecuted for the war they've started, but I can't quite see the RF as evil.

The E wrote:Question: Is it even important to find the members of the RF? And, once you have found them, what can or should you do with them?

In other words, is the Beowulf code so vital to the Honorverse that no government angling for amendments to it can be tolerated? Because, at the end of the day, that's the basic tenet of the Mesan Alignment, the idea that humanity could be much better if it weren't for Beowulf holding things back; Is embarking on a crusade to enforce Beowulfan standards really a good thing?

Don't get me wrong, the Alignment (or, at least, its current crop of leaders) needs to be persecuted for the war they've started, but I can't quite see the RF as evil.

The RF is just the respectable front the MAlign wants to establish. It is or rather will be entirely their creation and under their control.
I agree with you that modifying the code is not necessarily bad, but the RF and the MAlign are two sides of the same thing.

MaxxQ wrote:

dreamrider wrote:aha.

hence the little rolly eyed guy.

got it.

dr

Someone needs to have his sarcasm detector adjusted

I must admit he caught me!

Don

Just when do you think that the GA is going to be able to take tissue samples and sit the leadership (an awful lot of it of what WE know are the RF members) to have a conversation or two which includes very direct and specific questions about knowledge and membership or being part of the "Alignment" (in any one of several names) ?

Even if you have a tissue sample- and no head of state is going to give you that on their own planet- just what are you looking for? That they share "some" genetic markers with genetic slaves?. That they share markers with Alighment Alpha, Beta and Gama lines--and you have reference samples of HOW MANY of which groups from which people?

The plan is to have the RF coalesce out of independent worlds that are looking to both protect themselves from the problems durring the breakup of the SL and chaos that fillows. These are ALL systems with long-term, stable political systems that have been against genetic slavery for centuries. They are NOT going to run right out and make a 12 system confederation or other alliance. They are each going to create (or appear to evolve) their own set of allied systems in defence pacts and other agreements and will PROGRESS over years and years into what will become the RF.

Albrect is very specific in his discussion with the dozen RF leaders that should ANY of the planned aquistions on their own system's list of targets balk, they should be just left to follow their own ideas instead of ANY appearence of forcing them into the new alliances. The proto-RF groups are to be above reproach in their dealing with other systems and having ANYTHING that looks like it could connect them with the Alignment.

This whole process is intended to take decades, even centuries, and anything the Alignment wants to implement as far as genetic tinkering and policies changes, they will come in very quietly and very deep from within what would appear to be normal research and development in the medical community or another source "out in the open' on a member world and "slowly" make its way into more general use. They don't even have to do that, they can just "upgrade" the children of Star and other lines by simple replacement (and adjusting the records) to keep their people "up to date".

By the time the RF actually forms as a political/military/economic/scientific power, they will be a major player with the GA and other Star Nations in the Post-League universe.

We don't know exactly what McBride told Cachat/Zilwicki regarding the Alignment's political strategy (or indeed if he even knew what it was).

At the moment the GA is focused on destroying the League (basically in line with the Alignment's strategy), but so far as we know, they haven't even heard of the Renaissance Factor and have no idea there is a link between the two.

Whether there is any link between the Renaissance Factor and the Renaissance Association is another question. Whether there is or not, the RF likely chose its name to create the impression that there might be. IMO the Association is an outer part of The Onion with as much idea about its backers, as Manpower does about the Alignment. If so, the RA was set up specifically to give the RF an aura of dignified deliberation as the implementation of the RA's "noble mission".

All of which WAGing brings me to the headline question of this thread. Will the RF be hard to find? IMO, no it will not, it was set up in order to act openly as something which clearly has nothing to do with Mesa. Recognising it as being the public front of the MA's strategy will be the difficult part, because even without the MA's plan for destroying the League, somebody (probably several somebodies in fact) is almost certain to try something to try to hold the League together, and the GA can't jump on all of them without looking like a draconian bully.

The MA strategy must make some allowance for these other well meaning individuals, if only to make sure they fail, so that the RF can emerge later and more slowly once the initial attempts have failed.

Brigade XO wrote:Just when do you think that the GA is going to be able to take tissue samples and sit the leadership (an awful lot of it of what WE know are the RF members) to have a conversation or two which includes very direct and specific questions about knowledge and membership or being part of the "Alignment" (in any one of several names) ?

Even if you have a tissue sample- and no head of state is going to give you that on their own planet- just what are you looking for? That they share "some" genetic markers with genetic slaves?. That they share markers with Alighment Alpha, Beta and Gama lines--and you have reference samples of HOW MANY of which groups from which people?

The plan is to have the RF coalesce out of independent worlds that are looking to both protect themselves from the problems durring the breakup of the SL and chaos that fillows. These are ALL systems with long-term, stable political systems that have been against genetic slavery for centuries. They are NOT going to run right out and make a 12 system confederation or other alliance. They are each going to create (or appear to evolve) their own set of allied systems in defence pacts and other agreements and will PROGRESS over years and years into what will become the RF.

Albrect is very specific in his discussion with the dozen RF leaders that should ANY of the planned aquistions on their own system's list of targets balk, they should be just left to follow their own ideas instead of ANY appearence of forcing them into the new alliances. The proto-RF groups are to be above reproach in their dealing with other systems and having ANYTHING that looks like it could connect them with the Alignment.

This whole process is intended to take decades, even centuries, and anything the Alignment wants to implement as far as genetic tinkering and policies changes, they will come in very quietly and very deep from within what would appear to be normal research and development in the medical community or another source "out in the open' on a member world and "slowly" make its way into more general use. They don't even have to do that, they can just "upgrade" the children of Star and other lines by simple replacement (and adjusting the records) to keep their people "up to date".

By the time the RF actually forms as a political/military/economic/scientific power, they will be a major player with the GA and other Star Nations in the Post-League universe.

I'm not sure I agree about the time frame.

Mission of Honor, chapter 8.3 wrote:"In its own way, this meeting is going to be even more critical than Oyster Bay was. No one's going public, but we'll be very quietly activating the Alignment as an actual star nation. That's going to represent a huge step, and one we're not going to want to make public until the League's started to show a few surface fissures, at least."

This, plus a few other comments about military matters, suggest that they're going to go public in the (relatively) near future. I suspect part of the plan is to provide the RF as a "safe haven" for systems that want to secede from the league but are wondering if it's really wise militarily, and otherwise accelerate the breakup by providing a safe alternative.

lyonheart wrote:That's one reason some of us wonder will happen when Audrey meets Mike, ie whether Alfredo will be there and her reaction, and vice versa.

RFC may set it up so Alpha's like Audrey think they've avoided giving themselves away when the treecats are keeping track given they've had centuries of experience learning the signals of how humans lie or deceive which the memory singers have rehearsed to all the 'scouts' is kept track of, besides other clues such as proving Aldona Anisimovna's streak dive because how quickly she traveled between NT and Mesa etc.

L

Personally, I think Audrey is toast, at least if she's still on Mesa when Mike gets there and asks for an interview. There's one key question from Mike to Audrey: "Who sent you here?" If she tells the truth, they know she's an Alignment mole, if she doesn't, they know she's lying, so she's probably an Alignment mole.

As far as Aldona is concerned, if they can pin the times she's on Mesa, yes, that would confirm that she had a Streak drive ship at New Tuscany. Whether they can or not is a good question since they planned to make all those records vanish.

If they can, though, they've got emission signatures of her ship, which might be similar to the emission signatures of other "yachts" of the same class.

Hi Alizon,

Do you really think the MAlign plan included treecat lie detectors checking out the RF?

What good are the fuzzy cuddly lie detectors, if they can't detect lies?

If not for the accuracy of their reputation, why did Eloise want treecats at the peace conference?

If HA-H can tell when someone is lying and sees just emotional states, a very low level of empathy by treecat standards, just how highly sophisticated are the treecats' abilities?

Remember Nimitz on Grayson?

How did he know that the new armsmen were assassins?

From the profile the GA has already established for the MAlign's front organization, darn few will qualify, but the RF system leaders are going to be suspect matching so much of that already.

Alpha to Gamma line hostility to treecats was a tip-off in ToF, for who else has been hostile, save peeps who saw them as extensions of Manticore.

Attempts to deceive treecats will be flagged and followed up, but it should be obvious that RF leaders professing friendship and agreement on most issues yet harboring hate or mistrust against Manticore and the GA, hostility to cuddly cute treecats for no reason, are not to be trusted and put of the short list for further intense observation and investigation.

In other words, a process some thought would take years to decades might be only a few before the RF is unmasked.

I'm curious why you think so many ex-SL system leaders should be hostile to treecats when they're so ignorant of them [serious knowledge might be noted] or the GA when it has liberated their system from slavery or serfdom, eliminated the SL's unfair taxes on the shell that further enriched the old league core, eliminated the BF/FF reserve club that hung over every independent system, encouraged free trade, the domination of the transtellars, etc.

If they're angry or hostile about all that, I shouldn't need a treecat to suspect them of darker motivations.

L

Alizon wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Howdy Everybody!

Given that Elisabeth and Eloise saw from the beginning that Mesa would be abandoned by the MAlign, its true base was hidden, and it would continue to have a false front that would obviously denounce genetic slavery, while probably equipped with large well armed SDF's, all ought to point to the 11 MAlign RF shills when they announce themselves.

Then what happens?

Do the MAlign avoid being interviewed by tree-cat accompanied GA leaders, including admirals, or do they immediately go hostile like the poor sap assassin trying to get Berry?

Whichever course, they'll give themselves away, which will bring up Alpha lines, the MAlign's genetic markers, the weaponized nano-tech, plus lots of other things to find, because I'm sure the great plan didn't include cute cuddly truth detectors being all over the galaxy seeking their guilty prey.

I expect a few pages of Albrecht Detweiler cursing those blasted treecats before HA-H has Darius destroyed, possibly rammed by an empty SD type warship with the compensator deliberately offline like in "With One Stone" then accelerated to .7-9C, while extra RD's, shuttles or drone LAC's use their wedges to further guard its sidewalls until its too late.

Please feel free to share other insights.

L

I'm not sure where you're connecting the dots here LH. 1) Treecats are empaths - check
2) Treecats can sense the emotional states of humans - check
3) Treecats can determine who is and who is not an Alignment member in an interview --- ???

How do you figure?

There's nothing particularly special about an Alignment member's emotional state than is the case with any non-Alignment human being. They may have a hidden agenda but there are going to be literally thousands of leaders of thousands of worlds with are going to be less that truthful, maybe even secretly or not so secretly hostile to the Alliance.

Sure, treecats are going to be immensely capable of helping you figure out whether person X likes you or not, but there are going to literally be billions upon billions of people who are going to feel pretty much the same way. Difference is, Alignment members may actually be better at concealing or more appropriately, redirecting their emotions than others.

How are you going to pick out the Alignment schills from the planetary leader who doesn't like the Alliance for any of a number of extremely valid reasons, or who just has a lot of background hostility or who wants to use you for some ulterior purpose. What are you going to do with the Alignment member who really does like you and really hopes you can be a useful part of the new order, even wants to help you eventually fit in to your assigned station in life?

Emotions are funny things, they can give you some valuable clues but the hard part is determining just what those clues actually mean.

However I don't see anything intrinsic in the ability of treecats that makes them furry Mesan detectors.

Hi Dreamrider,

According to the Detweilers [reacting to Simoes and Anton being alive], the only MAlign agent high up in Haven is Col. Nesbitt, who hasn't met HA-H, but may meet a treecat rather soon.

The rogues HA-H met were out for themselves, though some may have been unknown alpha's etc confident of their superiority over the rest of humanity, HA-H didn't detect any hidden cooperation between them, indicating collusion with the MAlign etc.

L

dreamrider wrote:

kzt wrote:**quote="Alizon"**

I'm not sure where you're connecting the dots here LH. 1) Treecats are empaths - check
2) Treecats can sense the emotional states of humans - check
3) Treecats can determine who is and who is not an Alignment member in an interview --- ???

How do you figure?

There's nothing particularly special about an Alignment member's emotional state than is the case with any non-Alignment human being. They may have a hidden agenda but there are going to be literally thousands of leaders of thousands of worlds with are going to be less that truthful, maybe even secretly or not so secretly hostile to the Alliance.
**/quote**
Well, you can see how trivially Honor and Nimitz unmasked the MA agent who was largely responsible for the second war as soon as they met, so I can't see how anyone can doubt the power of treecats to make the books even more of a pointless walkover then they are already....

Huh? Explain what incident you are talking about please.

AFAIK, Col Nesbitt has never met Honor, and Delacroix was not a direct MALign agent, more of a venal dupe, and was not 'unmasked' anyway

If anything, the rather detailed descriptions of Honor's interactions with the opposing political figures in Neuveau Paris HIGHLIGHTS how difficult it will be to clearly detect/identify MAlign operatives with non-interrogatory treecat contacts, if those operatives are disciplined, committed, and appropriately low-profile during the contact.

dreamrider

dreamrider

Hi The E,

Why not?

They're part and parcel of the Malign, how are they different or better?

Given they're the front of the MAlign, Alpha line members committed to the destruction of 99.999% of the human race, I think they are 'persons of interest' to the GA.

L

The E wrote:Question: Is it even important to find the members of the RF? And, once you have found them, what can or should you do with them?

In other words, is the Beowulf code so vital to the Honorverse that no government angling for amendments to it can be tolerated? Because, at the end of the day, that's the basic tenet of the Mesan Alignment, the idea that humanity could be much better if it weren't for Beowulf holding things back; Is embarking on a crusade to enforce Beowulfan standards really a good thing?

Don't get me wrong, the Alignment (or, at least, its current crop of leaders) needs to be persecuted for the war they've started, but I can't quite see the RF as evil.