Honerveres vs Trekies

Star Trek ships have a limited number of torpedos though. So they can't do it forever. Honorverse ships also mount point defense laser clusters that out range Star Trek phasers and torpedos(20k+ kilometers PDLC while a maybe a few hundred kilometers for Star Trek (look at how close they get to shoot at each other)) the PDLC have a chance at shooting down the torpedos. Grasers also seem to beat out phasers for power and range. I'd give the advanage to Honorverse assuming that the Star Trek ships try to get in range.

darrell wrote:

Renegade13 wrote:I can't think of a single weapon in the Star Trek universe that would enable them to attack from outside of an Honorverse ship's energy range, so the ability of a Star Trek(ST) ship to avoid Honorverse(HV) missiles is a moot point.
If the ST ships close the distance, I think that HV weapons - grazers and heavy lasers - are more powerful than ST phasers and disruptors. HV capital ships are also much more heavily armored than anything in the ST universe... in fact, I would bet that the average HV Heavy Cruiser is at least as heavily armored as the strongest ST ships - and I also think that the sidewalls of an SD/DN/BC are stronger than the shields of a ST ship. I am basing this on the overall effects of the weapons - a ST phaser will cut into a ship, but grazers have been described as gouging deep into even heavily armored ships and causing a much greater amount of damage. (Yes, I have been a trekkie for many, many years; and have played both computer and board games based on the ST ships... sorry, they just aren't in the weight class of HV ships)

From a Heavy Cruiser on up, the HV ships simply out-weigh and out-armor anything that the ST universe can send out... and I think even 'modern' HV DDs and CLs could hold their own in a fairly even numbered fight.

The star trek ship can close from outside the honorverse ship range to 2MKM at faster than light speeds. It will than have more than a minute attack with torpedo's before the honrverse missiles get close. When the missiles get close, go back to warp for a second, move to the other side of the ship, and start firing more torpedos. the Star trek ship can keep it up indefinatly, and never get hurt.

darrell wrote:

Renegade13 wrote:I can't think of a single weapon in the Star Trek universe that would enable them to attack from outside of an Honorverse ship's energy range, so the ability of a Star Trek(ST) ship to avoid Honorverse(HV) missiles is a moot point.
If the ST ships close the distance, I think that HV weapons - grazers and heavy lasers - are more powerful than ST phasers and disruptors. HV capital ships are also much more heavily armored than anything in the ST universe... in fact, I would bet that the average HV Heavy Cruiser is at least as heavily armored as the strongest ST ships - and I also think that the sidewalls of an SD/DN/BC are stronger than the shields of a ST ship. I am basing this on the overall effects of the weapons - a ST phaser will cut into a ship, but grazers have been described as gouging deep into even heavily armored ships and causing a much greater amount of damage. (Yes, I have been a trekkie for many, many years; and have played both computer and board games based on the ST ships... sorry, they just aren't in the weight class of HV ships)

From a Heavy Cruiser on up, the HV ships simply out-weigh and out-armor anything that the ST universe can send out... and I think even 'modern' HV DDs and CLs could hold their own in a fairly even numbered fight.

The star trek ship can close from outside the honorverse ship range to 2MKM at faster than light speeds. It will than have more than a minute attack with torpedo's before the honrverse missiles get close. When the missiles get close, go back to warp for a second, move to the other side of the ship, and start firing more torpedos. the Star trek ship can keep it up indefinatly, and never get hurt.

lets see, they would attack with photon torpedoes, right? I thought that OBS states that photon torpedoes are ineffective against an intact sidewall. Now, if they used the Picard Maneuver, and the warp drive is not capable of being detected by FTL sensors, then, yes, the phasers and torpedoes could hit the ship. However, the ST ship would then need to turn in realspace, before they warped away, and that takes time. ("Faster than light, no left or right." Tom Paris; ST:VOY) Considering how much better HV ships are built as WARSHIPS, I don't think that the Enterprise stands much of a chance.

crewdude48 wrote:

darrell wrote:

Renegade13 wrote:I can't think of a single weapon in the Star Trek universe that would enable them to attack from outside of an Honorverse ship's energy range, so the ability of a Star Trek(ST) ship to avoid Honorverse(HV) missiles is a moot point.
If the ST ships close the distance, I think that HV weapons - grazers and heavy lasers - are more powerful than ST phasers and disruptors. HV capital ships are also much more heavily armored than anything in the ST universe... in fact, I would bet that the average HV Heavy Cruiser is at least as heavily armored as the strongest ST ships - and I also think that the sidewalls of an SD/DN/BC are stronger than the shields of a ST ship. I am basing this on the overall effects of the weapons - a ST phaser will cut into a ship, but grazers have been described as gouging deep into even heavily armored ships and causing a much greater amount of damage. (Yes, I have been a trekkie for many, many years; and have played both computer and board games based on the ST ships... sorry, they just aren't in the weight class of HV ships)

From a Heavy Cruiser on up, the HV ships simply out-weigh and out-armor anything that the ST universe can send out... and I think even 'modern' HV DDs and CLs could hold their own in a fairly even numbered fight.

The star trek ship can close from outside the honorverse ship range to 2MKM at faster than light speeds. It will than have more than a minute attack with torpedo's before the honrverse missiles get close. When the missiles get close, go back to warp for a second, move to the other side of the ship, and start firing more torpedos. the Star trek ship can keep it up indefinatly, and never get hurt.

lets see, they would attack with photon torpedoes, right? I thought that OBS states that photon torpedoes are ineffective against an intact sidewall. Now, if they used the Picard Maneuver, and the warp drive is not capable of being detected by FTL sensors, then, yes, the phasers and torpedoes could hit the ship. However, the ST ship would then need to turn in realspace, before they warped away, and that takes time. ("Faster than light, no left or right." Tom Paris; ST:VOY) Considering how much better HV ships are built as WARSHIPS, I don't think that the Enterprise stands much of a chance.

Quote OBS: "I'm afraid we didn't have much choice, Ma'am. We could have handled the energy torpedoes with software changes, but the grav lance is basically an engineering system."

Energy torpedo's are inefective against sidewalls, A photon is a unit of light, so probably will not be affected by sidewalls.

And yes, I did use a quote that contained the weapon that must not be named, just for fun.

Sorry guys, but this is yet another "what is better, apples or blue?" question. They don't relate, beyond some visuals; the universes work on massively different rules and the answer is always going to be "whichever one I'm a bigger fan of", just like the Star Trek vs. Star Wars debates.

If you allow anything published in front-line material and/or shown on screen, then, wierd as it is, ST wins here in ship to ship combat just because photon torpedos - antimatter warheads with a 1kg antimatter load, officially, not those crumby fusion bombs - land on your sidewall / down the throat before you know it at ftl speeds (photon torpedoes are warp-speed missiles). The ST vessel goes past you at (say) 50c and hits you with a dozen as it goes by, and there's nothing you can do about it.

BUT... before Honorverse fans rant at me, because I am an Honorverse fan as well, you know (I'm one of those wierd multifanual types who thinks it's morally permissable to be into all kinds of fan relations) the main reason this is all so silly is the Honorverse is a mostly coherent military sci-fi environment with mostly coherent technology and rules, and Star Trek is a television series with dozens of different writers, most of whom didn't speak to each other, and anything approximating "rules" or "coherence" or "science" is bolted on after the event in an attempt to make sense of what was on the screen. It's not just ST:TOS vs ST:Voyager, the rules often change within the same series of the same show. Weapons, abilities and concepts shown in one episode are completely forgotten by the next. If you give David Weber the same opportunity, Honor's anime-level telekinetic skills will allow her mecha-lighjtning sword to swipe down Federation ships from orbit, and the new upgraded Tankersly will fire the ultra-destructo-ray through an enemy planet to destroy the fleet on the other side, or perhaps she'll just travel back in time to pre-position an ambushing minefield.

Actually that's one of my irritations of that last lens-flare extravaganza of a movie. Beaming someone across light-years onto a ship at full warp is now canon. Except how much do you bet that they never do that or even mention it ever again, let alone beam a battalion of federation marines onto an incoming warbird before it gets its shields up?
But then, they just gave command of the Federation's flagship and best battleship to somone who technically was still a cadet and at best by rule bending on his midshipman's cruise, mutter mutter grumble grumble...

petercharters wrote:Sorry guys, but this is yet another "what is better, apples or blue?" question. They don't relate, beyond some visuals; the universes work on massively different rules and the answer is always going to be "whichever one I'm a bigger fan of", just like the Star Trek vs. Star Wars debates.

If you allow anything published in front-line material and/or shown on screen, then, wierd as it is, ST wins here in ship to ship combat just because photon torpedos - antimatter warheads with a 1kg antimatter load, officially, not those crumby fusion bombs - land on your sidewall / down the throat before you know it at ftl speeds (photon torpedoes are warp-speed missiles). The ST vessel goes past you at (say) 50c and hits you with a dozen as it goes by, and there's nothing you can do about it.

BUT... before Honorverse fans rant at me, because I am an Honorverse fan as well, you know (I'm one of those wierd multifanual types who thinks it's morally permissable to be into all kinds of fan relations) the main reason this is all so silly is the Honorverse is a mostly coherent military sci-fi environment with mostly coherent technology and rules, and Star Trek is a television series with dozens of different writers, most of whom didn't speak to each other, and anything approximating "rules" or "coherence" or "science" is bolted on after the event in an attempt to make sense of what was on the screen. It's not just ST:TOS vs ST:Voyager, the rules often change within the same series of the same show. Weapons, abilities and concepts shown in one episode are completely forgotten by the next. If you give David Weber the same opportunity, Honor's anime-level telekinetic skills will allow her mecha-lighjtning sword to swipe down Federation ships from orbit, and the new upgraded Tankersly will fire the ultra-destructo-ray through an enemy planet to destroy the fleet on the other side, or perhaps she'll just travel back in time to pre-position an ambushing minefield.

Actually that's one of my irritations of that last lens-flare extravaganza of a movie. Beaming someone across light-years onto a ship at full warp is now canon. Except how much do you bet that they never do that or even mention it ever again, let alone beam a battalion of federation marines onto an incoming warbird before it gets its shields up?
But then, they just gave command of the Federation's flagship and best battleship to somone who technically was still a cadet and at best by rule bending on his midshipman's cruise, mutter mutter grumble grumble...

Oi. Star Trek (the 2009 movie) is an alternate continuity from everything else (and not really Trek-like at all). Let's leave it out of this, eh?
Also, the 1kg antimatter load in photon torps is, as I recall, from a now old and weak model of torp; and also non-canon. Then there's the fact that quantum torps aren't conventional explosions.

Honorverse vs Trek? Trek wins.
Honorverse is, relatively speaking, on the 'harder' end of the sci fi scale. Trek is soft sci fi - incredibly soft.
"Hard" and "Soft", being terms used to describe the relationship with known science.

Trek makes physics its b****. All the time, even when they're not doing anything that requires that kind of capability. While most of the 'conventional' Trek FTL mechanisms are slower than high-band Honorverse hyper, the higher end stuff (and tech-of-the-week) makes Honorverse speeds look slow.


In terms of which one is a better series/ I like better? I dunno. Trek got rebooted into an alternate continuity that wasn't very Trek-like by Abrams, and there isn't new Trek coming out anymore that I bother to follow, whilst I impatiently wait for the next Honorverse, and wish that there could be a new novel every day (I'd need time to do things like sleep, eat, work, etc, after all - otherwise, I'd opt for a shorter interval).

darrell wrote:

Belial666 wrote:Speed:
Fairly advanced Star Trek ships can move at roughly 1000 times the speed of light under warp drive. Higher speeds are possible but very rare for non-Borg humanoid civilizations. Non-hyperspace speed is limited to less than 0.5 c.
Honorverse ships can reach 3000 times the speed of light in hyper. Higher speeds are possible but very rare. Non-hyperspace speed is limited to 0.8 c.
Adv: Honorverse

Star trek does not use hyperspace and can manuver at faster than light speeds in combat. Although they take longer to go from system to system, FTL combat speds for Trek ships is faster than sublight speeds for honorverse ships. Speed advantage, Star trek.

Minor note: IIRC Star trek subspace communications propogates at warp 36, which would be 46,000 times light speed.

Minor snerk about warp speeds. According to everything i have read and played with various ST game systems warp speed is calculated at the speed indicated cubed in relation to FTL speeds. Ergo warp 5 is approx 125FTL

OK, if you guys are arguing the movie tech of Star Trek we can argue this adnausium forever Vs Honorvers Tech. But if you use the board game rules for Star Fleet Battles I'll give you a quick rundown of SFB weapons and ranges

Phasers
Mk1 longest ranged of phasers max range 20-24 hexes number of hit points diminishes with range, at max range does 1 dp at point blank range under 10 hex 10 dp.
Mk2 medium range weapon max range 18 hex about half dp of Mk1.
Mk3 short range 10 hex, weapon used mostly for point defence on larger vessles and used on police vessles.

Photon Torpedo or anti-matter torpedo, direct fire weapon suseptable to ECM dp 12-20 depending on ST era ie TOS vs movies I-VI.

ST weapon range makes them loose. HV outranges them so badly it´s not even funny.
Add to that, HV ships has more firepower, their shielding is always effective even if it´s not as good at absorbing damage.

ST ships will have a small chance facing HV ships lacking bow and sternwalls, by using warp speed to get up close and hopefully do damage before getting smashed to pieces themselves.
Of course there is a big question if anything but their most extreme weapons will do much damage...

Tenshinai wrote:ST weapon range makes them loose. HV outranges them so badly it´s not even funny.
Add to that, HV ships has more firepower, their shielding is always effective even if it´s not as good at absorbing damage.

ST ships will have a small chance facing HV ships lacking bow and sternwalls, by using warp speed to get up close and hopefully do damage before getting smashed to pieces themselves.
Of course there is a big question if anything but their most extreme weapons will do much damage...

well, ST torpedos are FTL, no matter what their warhead is. i don't know how well ST shields would stand up to the gamma radiation of HV's bomb pumped laser-heads, but an HV missile has little chance of getting anywhere near a star trek ship unless the st ship is running with its sensors turned off.

Yes, just forget about missiles. The Honorverse version are too slow, and the Trekkies don't use them.

It's all about how the energy weapons work out, and there we just don't know. "shields" and "phasers" can't be compared to "sidewalls" and "graser/lasers".

Honorverse ships inability to go FTL insystem is going to mean the Trekkie ships can pick the range, but their effective range is well inside the energy envelope for Honorverse ships, and they fight at sublight speeds.

So it'll be an energy weapon vs shields duel of "apples vs oranges" Unless the wedge fails to interfere with transport tech. If the Trekkies can transport a nuke inside the opposing ship (as was done on some episode, once "shields" had been brought down), they can probably do that from outside the energy envelope and they just win. I could totally see how a grav wedge would screw that up though, so I think it's "dueling energy weapons that are impossible to compare" final outcome.

Oh, and also, Honorverse ships can't force combat with Trekkie ships unless they somehow defeat sensors entirely (arrive "cloaked"). Which isn't impossible.