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Postwar Conversations

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Postwar Conversations
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:42 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Ensign Mai-ling Jackson and Mercedes Brigham need a reunion and a good chat. That promises to be a very heartfelt and sentimental conversation.

And I want it. For both.

I'm certain lots of people want to check in on Mai-ling, and needs to know she's fine. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she has left the navy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Postwar Conversations
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:43 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Gwen Archer and Helga are going to have to discuss, with Helen, a certain conversation that took place over lunch, of how well Helen knows her father, and how right she was.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Postwar Conversations
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:13 am

SharkHunter
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm
Location: Independence, Missouri

Me and Nimitz, nobody else even comes close. I want THAT interview, try to scoop that Ms. Mesan Highly Touted News-Scoop-Dropper extraordinaire O'Hanrahan!

Well, sometimes an antiquated Solarian citizen has to win, right? can't have the Manties do ALL the heavy lifting, right? Something about age and treachery defeating youth and skill every time?

Oh wait. Prolong. Dang. I gotta get me some.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Postwar Conversations
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:15 am

SharkHunter
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm
Location: Independence, Missouri

cthia wrote:Ensign Mai-ling Jackson and Mercedes Brigham need a reunion and a good chat. That promises to be a very heartfelt and sentimental conversation. And I want it. For both.
I'm certain lots of people want to check in on Mai-ling, and needs to know she's fine. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she has left the navy.

I think you're right that Mai-Ling left the RMN with a full disability pension and folks to do everything they could to put her back together emotionally. Part of the reason that Mercedes initially stayed in was to avenge all of Madrigal's women, especially Mai-ling.
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Postwar Conversations
Post by dreamrider   » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:09 am

dreamrider
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:44 am

SharkHunter wrote:
cthia wrote:Ensign Mai-ling Jackson and Mercedes Brigham need a reunion and a good chat. That promises to be a very heartfelt and sentimental conversation. And I want it. For both.
I'm certain lots of people want to check in on Mai-ling, and needs to know she's fine. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she has left the navy.

I think you're right that Mai-Ling left the RMN with a full disability pension and folks to do everything they could to put her back together emotionally. Part of the reason that Mercedes initially stayed in was to avenge all of Madrigal's women, especially Mai-ling.


Also the reason that I am sure that all of her requests to be put in charge of the orbital patrol of Masada have been denied.

dr
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Re: Postwar Conversations
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:13 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

SharkHunter wrote:
cthia wrote:Ensign Mai-ling Jackson and Mercedes Brigham need a reunion and a good chat. That promises to be a very heartfelt and sentimental conversation. And I want it. For both.
I'm certain lots of people want to check in on Mai-ling, and needs to know she's fine. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she has left the navy.

I think you're right that Mai-Ling left the RMN with a full disability pension and folks to do everything they could to put her back together emotionally. Part of the reason that Mercedes initially stayed in was to avenge all of Madrigal's women, especially Mai-ling.


dreamrider wrote:Also the reason that I am sure that all of her requests to be put in charge of the orbital patrol of Masada have been denied.

dr

Dammit, you just made me spill early morning tea all over myself. :lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Postwar Conversations
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:02 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Setting.
The Duchy of Harrington.
The Duchy was located on Gryphon, areas of it were ideal for both beach and ski resorts. Attorney Clarise Childers of Childers, Strauslund, Goldman and Wu handled the negotiations with ski consortium's to develop the resorts. It also included a stretch of coastline similar to the Copperwall on Harrington's home planet of Sphinx.
Its total population was about 2,000 by the time Duchess Harrington took command of Sidemore Station. (HH10)
In 1921 PD it became the second off-world colony site for treecats. (Companion)

On the beach, and a huge bonfire going. Marshmallows roasting on an open fire, then dipped in honey from the honeycomb then roasted more. The smell of roasting chestnuts wafting through the air. Much food being prepared for thousands of Honor's very special friends along with all of the Elysian Space Navy, coming together for the first time to talk about yesteryear.

Honor tells little Tomas how pigheaded his father Jesus was, and that it took only the mention of "little Tomas" to turn him to jelly.

What a festive occasion complete with many interesting, heartfelt, and quite profound conversations that promises to be.

Aside:
Revisiting the details of that escape, I didn't fully appreciate the Herculean task undertook by Honor and team - all of the planning, training, and retraining. I know they had lots of time, but gee-wiz!

Honor should have a branch of Saganami named after her. Or at least an extension of the ATC, the SATC. Salamander Advanced Tactical Course.

Just a very interesting and informational ...
Wiki:
Personnel of the Elysian Space Navy
The personnel of the Elysian Space Navy originated from prisoners freed from Hades Planetary Prison or ships with orders to take the to Hades.

Contents

ORIGIN OF PERSONNEL

Allied
Allied personnel of the Elysian Space Navy were members of armed forces that belonged to the Manticoran Alliance.

⦁CruRon 18 senior personnel - Captured on Oct 23, 1911 PD, after the battle in the Adler System. They were accompanied by Commander

⦁Warner Caslet of the People's Navy, their liaison to StateSec. They escaped from StateSec vessel PNS Tepes in the Cerberus System. All of them were experienced naval personnel.

⦁POWs from PNS Krashnark - The exact number of allied POWs originating form Zanzibar and Alizon pickets is not certain. It was at least 36 people, including Commander Victor Ainspan, the only hypercapable ship commander among them.

⦁POWs from Hades - The vast majority of the final 6800 allied personnel of the Elysian Space Navy were POWs sent off to Hades before 1912 PD. Surprisingly there was only one hypercapable ship commander among them - Lieutenant Commander Roberta Ellis. Some of the other officers were former LAC commanders.

Non-allied volunteers
Less than 4.000 of 175.000 collaborative prisoners were employed in the Elysian Space Navy. When PNS Krashnark was captured there were about 4.800 non-allied personnel on Styx, including:

⦁560 survived Infernoites constituting initial security force and other Camp Charon services, like Charon Control or hospital,

⦁c.a. 300 farm laborers, continuously needed dirtside,

⦁probably less than 200 ex-sex-slaves - civilians mainly, if counted as personnel and employed on the basis of their original skills,

⦁the rest, c.a. 3.700 personnel, transferred on purpose from other camps.

The final number of non-Allied volunteers, needed for the ESN, was defined by Commodore Simmons as the second evacuation list. Non-allied personnel were a minor part of the Elysian Space Navy's manpower. With at least 6.800 Allied personnel, it was necessary to find an additional 2.100 non-Allied personnel for the ESN warships. Moreover the ESN's 8 non-combat ships required at least 320-400 additional personnel each.

The most important non-Allied members of the Elysian Space Navy were:

⦁Commodore Jesus Ramirez - assigned to second in command position in the ESN,

⦁Captain Harriet Benson - assigned as commanding officer on seized warships,

⦁Captain Cynthia Gonsalves - named commanding officer of ENS Sabine and senior officer of the first evacuation convoy, which was connected more with her position of BuPers head than her naval skills,

⦁Commander Warner Caslet - the only former People's Navy member.

Legal status
Allied personnel were obligated to follow the orders of senior allied officers. Former citizens of the states conquered by the People's Republic of Haven, as well as Commander Warner Caslet, served on a voluntary basis, and technically they committed treason against the People's Republic.

Commanding officers in the Elysian Space Navy weren't assigned by the order of their state naval authorities. They were prize masters named by the senior officer present in fact. The Royal Manticoran Navy didn't recognized ship command in the ESN as hypercapable warship command.[5]

As the Elysian Space Navy was a provisional formation, its personnel served with original ranks bestowed by their home armed forces and they used their original uniforms[6].

No non-commissioned officers and no acting commissioned officers were promoted. It seems Captain Alistair McKeon lost that power, when he surrendered HMS Prince Adrian and lost control over ship company.

See also: Elysian Space Navy#Legal status

Experience level
Finally there were circa 5.000 of the Manticoran Alliance POW's incarcerated no longer than 5 T-years and circa 1.800 of them incarcerated longer than 5 T-years, but no longer than from 1905 PD[7]. Even short time inmates needed some fast retraining.

Non-allied personnel members were at least a decade out of date[8] and some of them were even half a century out of date. Several long-term prisoners were fit just for department heads, stand their watches and carry out CO's orders, but not for CO positions. A lot of the others initially were far from the RMN standards. Even those, who passed well retraining course were less skilled than allied personnel recently in service[9].

Ship commanders issue
There were not enough skilled ship commanders for all warships captured from the Shilo Force. There were only three people, who graduated the Advanced Tactical Course (Harrington, McKeon and Aispan[10]) and one person only, that graduated Tactical Course. It was impossible to assign Commander Caslet to a commanding officer position, despite his long warship command. The only non-allied assigned as commanding officers of the warships were Captain Benson and Captain Gonsalves[11]. That's why Admiral Harrington also assigned as skippers senior CruRon 18 personnel - Commander Marchant and Lieutenant Commanders: Tremaine, Lethridge, Metcalf and DuChene.

Retraining
Necessary retraining of the Elysian Space Navy's personnel was based on Charon Control, ENS Krashnark and ENS Bacchante.

Charon Control
Initially four watches were trained for Charon Control Command Central purposes. The training was slowed down than, until message concerning StateSec Shilo Force arrival was obtained. At least 2.000 of people were trained there for the Elysian Space Navy purposes or were employed there and detached to the ESN after seizing of the Shilo Force.

Cruisers
Training programme in space started with obtaining ENS Krashnark. Initially naval crew had to acquaint just with Havenite contemporary equipment.

⦁Captain McKeon and Captain Benson were named responsible for training personnel to combat-ready status on Havenite hardware,

⦁Lieutenant Commander Metcalf and Master Chief Ascher were assigned to that task as well,

⦁Commander Phillips and Lieutenant Commander Dumfries were assigned to help with the initial planning concerning such training.

⦁Commodore Ramirez and Captain Benson were reacquiring their command skills aboard ENS Krashnark in company with ENS Bacchante, under supervision of Admiral Harrington and Captain McKeon,

⦁CIC crews were trained aboard Krashnark by Admiral Harrington and Senior Chief Ascher,

⦁1.800 of long imprisoned allied personnel were trained aboard both cruisers, before message concerning StateSec Shilo Force arrival was obtained.

Prospective Shilo Force arrival in three weeks caused significant acceleration of retraining courses:

⦁training course for 1.800 of long imprisonment allied personnel was planned to be ended in 72 hours,

⦁three one-week-long quick refresh courses were planned also, with experienced and inexperienced (non-allied) crew mixed together - which made even 5.400 of personnel together

Crew requirements
Final crew requirements were determined by 10 operable warships, the escort light cruiser[13] and 7 transports. Minimal crew requirements per warship class was c.a. 60% of original core complements[14]:

Warlord-class battlecruiser minimal complement was 1.325 crew - there were 4 undamaged vessels,

⦁damaged Warlord-class
⦁ENS Farnese minimal complement was 700 crew,

Mars-class heavy cruiser minimal complement was 600 crew - there were 4 vessels,

Frigate-class light cruiser ENS Bacchante 60% complement was 480 crew.

Total warships complements demand was c.a. 8.900 people. Allied naval personnel (c.a. 6.800) was supported with non-allied Charon Control personnel there (c.a. 2.100).

Minimal complement just to move a ship was estimated as 40-50 machine and cons crew, that makes 320-400 personnel together for eight non-combat ships, but:

⦁the exact number of ENS Sabine's skeleton complement is not certain,

⦁two Roughneck-class fast attack transports very likely were manned with personnel of dissolved Charon Control (standard core complement - 250, average complement for non-combat ship - 200, 60% complement - 150; 6 boat bays and 84 carried shuttles needed numerous boat bay and small craft personnel however).

With the Manticoran standard ratio of one officer per ten enlisted men,[16] the Elysian Space Navy created positions for c.a. 830 commissioned officers.
Marine issue

⦁some Royal Manticoran Marine Corps members, as well as some junior officers of the Gaston Marines were incarcerated in Hades,

⦁there were some boarding actions, but troopers used there don't have to be Marines:

⦁PNS Krashnark was boarded at least with platoon of 45-50 armored troopers, under the command of Ensign Carson Clinkscales,

⦁some boarding parties were used against PNS Bacchante and the Shilo Force as well, it wasn't enough personnel to organize Marine complements before Battle of Cerberus:

⦁present allied marines were counted probably together with naval personnel and were used for weapons mounts,

⦁very likely there were not enough of them to organize damage control parties

⦁two saved transports had to be boarded however,

⦁during travel to the Trevor's Star System some symbolic multinational marine complements were created, at least one of which was present on ENS Farnese, with Major Chezno in charge.

Personnel by ship
ENS Farnese
⦁ Admiral Honor Harrington - CO

⦁ Commander Warner Caslet - XO

⦁ Commander Alyson Inch - Chief Engineer,

⦁ Lieutenant Amanda Thurman,

⦁ Ensign Carson Clinkscales

⦁ Major Chezno - the senior officer of marine detachment,

⦁ Major Andrew LaFollet - Steadholder Harrington's personal armsman.

ENS Wallenstein
⦁ Captain (SG) Alistair McKeon - CO,
⦁ Commodore Jesus Ramirez - second in command officer of the ESN

ENS Kutuzov
⦁ Captain Harriet Benson - CO,

⦁ Lieutenant Henri Dessouix- CO, marine complement.

ENS MacArthur
⦁ Commander Solomon Marchant - CO,

⦁ Lieutenant (SG) Jasper Mayhew

ENS Barbarosa
⦁ CO Lieutenant Commander Geraldine Metcalf

ENS Krashnark
⦁ Commander Solomon Marchant - CO after boarding,

⦁ Lieutenant Commander Geraldine Metcalf - XO after boarding,

⦁ Ensign Carson Clinkscales - senior officer of the boarding party,

⦁ Captain (SG) Alistair McKeon - CO until the Shilo Force takeover,

⦁ Commodore Jesus Ramirez - trainee,

⦁ Captain Harriet Benson - trainee,

⦁ Master Chief Petty Officer Gianna Ascher - CIC instructor,

⦁ Lieutenant Commander Prescott Tremaine - CO during battle of Cerberus,

⦁ Senior Chief Gunner's Mate Horace Harkness - probably in charge with electronic warfare during battle of Cerberus

ENS Ares
⦁ CO Commander Victor Ainspan

ENS Huan-Ti
⦁ CO Lieutenant Commander Anson Lethridge

ENS Ishtar
⦁ CO Lieutenant Commander Sarah DuChene

ENS Bacchante
⦁ Captain Harriet Benson - CO during the Shilo Force takeover,

⦁ Lieutenant Commander Roberta Ellis - CO during Battle of Cerberus.

ENS Sabine
⦁ CO Captain Cynthia Gonsalves

References
↑ It is not certain, where within the Elysian Space Navy were assigned Lieutenant (SG) 1. Russell Sanko, Senior Chief Petty Officer 1. Linda Barstow and Senior Chief Petty Officer 1. Tamara O’Jorgenson.
↑ as lieutenants very likely, two of them at least
↑ It is not mentioned where were employed Commander 3. Albert Hurst, former 3. Helmsport Navy and Lieutenant 3. Stephenson, former 3. Lowell Space Navy.
↑ Difference between 5.000 POWs just before PNS Krashnark's arrival and 8.000 after she was captured can also explain such issue. Moreover there were c.a. 2000 prisoners from Benson's camp, treated by Commander 4. Montoya - it is not certain, where they were treated however, and their presence on Styx wasn't mentioned.
↑ Eg. Honor Harrington obtained five stars for each her hypercapable command only.(HH11)
↑ it is not certain what way were uniformed civilian volunteers
↑ It is not certain, why just 5 years term was established for up-to-date assessment. Long time POWs according to that criterion were those captured in the initial phase of the war and those captured until 1907/8 PD, when the RMN started to suffer heavier loses; that included two couples of POWs sent to Benson's camp.
↑ so the last Havenite conquests occurred even in 1903 PD, just before the war
↑ that's why eg. Commander 9. Susan Phillips, a computer specialist in the former Sarawak System Navy, was assigned to Charon Control
↑ Styles was arrested
↑ Latter one in charge with the unit used as escort ship only, manned with skeleton crew.
↑ half trained personnel surplus was suitable for transport ships; it is not certain, what was the teaching personnel number, comprised very likely of POWs captured during Operation Icarus also, and the exact number of retrained short-time allied inmates; at least 400 non-allied personnel trained that way
↑ 13. ENS Sabine
↑ defined by Commander Warner Caslet, as the People's Navy officer; no damage control and boat bay crew, half of the machine crew and minimal weapons mounts crew mmm
↑ 15. JIR2
↑ (16. JIR1)
↑ Before the ESN was created some marines were chosen by Major 17. Andrew LaFollet to assist him with Steadholder Harrington's personal protection, but the only steadholder Harrington's personal armsman present in 17. Admiral White Haven's pinnace was Major LaFollet. (17. HH9)
↑ Besides Lieutenant 18. Henri Dessouix. There is no further information concerning their presence.
↑ she used flag bridge
↑ with his service on ENS Farnese "best crew for crippled ship rule" was mentioned
↑ supposition - former flag lieutenant in CruRon 18, in White Haven's pinnace enumerated after Commander Caslet, but before higher in rank Lieutenant Mayhew (HH9)
↑ flag officers' staffs not mentioned
↑ supposition
↑ Supposition
↑ supposition - together with Tremaine, enumerated after him in White Haven's pinnace (HH9) mmm

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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