Henke — to do, or not to do.

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

"I will never surrender, I might get captured, but I will never surrender. There is a difference because saying 'I surrender' is saying 'I've given up',"
-Retired Navy Cmdr. Henry James "Jim" Bedinger

Yow wrote:I have never before formally sat with a group and discussed books before this forum. None of the people in my circle get that kind of free time. If this thread were any indication I would suck at it.

My worldview on this threads topic is woefully hampered from the fact that I spent my entire adult life on the other side of the fence. I can't truly relate to the view most here can see.

My feelings on this topic are that Admiral Henke's decision was the correct one to make. It is from my own professions code of conduct that I feel this way.

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

In regards to the earlier life pods being jettisoned, to me the ship was a goner but she could still fight. Ordering those that could escape to do so in my mind does not indicate surrender. They were saved while the rest of the ship was going to die. That was Admiral Henke's concession to her people not to the enemy. (If I speak of the ship without mentioning the sailors on board please do not mistake that I will ever forget who is aboard and what we are. We fight the ship. We are the ship.) I look upon what Admiral Henke thought would be her final actions from this point of view.

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

In the end Admiral Henke realized that having her Captain fighting the ship to last could have been seen as a ruse that could have possible repercussions upon those she had already ordered off the ship. This tells me she had no Machiavellian intentions other than a tactical consideration to have her Captain train her guns onto the enemy for maximum return. The thought of surrender to the enemy is anathema to the Royal Manticoran Navy. The Tradition Lives. This is another reason I feel that Admiral Henke’s actions were not morally questionable. That is a huge precedent in my mind’s eye.

I believe that the Admiral Redmont’s actions were understandable, but I believe he clearly made a tactical mistake and not a moral one either. His thoughts on Admiral Henke’s actions were based on his intentions and his understanding of the situation. The only way I would feel that either Mike or Admiral Redmont had acted immorally was if they had been in active communication with each other and that the pursuing Haven fleet and Admiral Henke had through verbal exchange indicted that despite Admiral Henke’s ships best speed and functioning “Wedge” that her intentions were to surrender her command and Admiral Redmont’s intentions would be to allow her to scuttle her ship with out repercussions.

This is how I have come to view this topic through my haze gray colored lenses.

cthia, if my words cause you any angst or if I harmed you in any way I apologize. My professional life's work has been to defend our freedoms including your right to believe, feel, and say what you believe, not to attack you or denigrate you for how you view life.

cthia, you, roseandheather and RFC are the only reasons I continue to pop in on a daily basis. I obviously do not agree with you always but I love interacting with you on something we both enjoy. Sappy as that may sound.

"I will never surrender, I might get captured, but I will never surrender. There is a difference because saying 'I surrender' is saying 'I've given up',"
-Retired Navy Cmdr. Henry James "Jim" Bedinger

cthia wrote:

lyonheart wrote:
Hi Don,

Kudos for explaining it so patiently and well.

Given how well this snafu or Cthia's conundrum is laid out, I've wondered if RFC hadn't considered it for HH once upon a time somehow, possibly to tarnish her reputation, perhaps even in her own mind; to get people to realise just how confusing war can be.

It bothers me that Cthia keeps ignoring the accidental nature or coincidence of the whole series of decisions and events; none of which of themselves I think Cthia could argue were wrong when whoever especially Mike made them in isolation, yet Cthia's continued and almost preferred state of apparent confusion, particularly blaming Mike for all the deadly results, seems petty and almost petulant to me.

Isn't it time to move on?

L.

Try as I may, I cannot wring any gray matter out of the forum. Can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. Is there not one of you who likes a good formal book discussion? Is there not one of you willing to bring those skills to bear ... into the forum ... without hurtling sophomoric spittles of condescension? ...

Kudos for explaining it so patiently and well.

Petty. Petulant.

These are what I get hurled back at me for decently asking ...

Can we talk?

If one's answer to the very first question is no then one's response as lips are sealed would have been a more appropriate ... and decent, response.

What the hell. You can't teach morals, scruples and values. Even when you painstakingly lay it all out.

Every time I fail to glance at the forum early morning I'm inundated with emails of disgust from friends. THIS TIME MY NIECE LEADS THE PACK. I could say that she is more than a bit angry but that'd be a damn lie. SHE IS PISSED. L-I-V-I-D-!

12 yr-old Tierney wrote:
<snip>
I can't believe I wanted to join that forum. I'd be better off sitting in the forest amongst a forum of trees. I'd get a better conversation from tree bark. If no one is there, does a tree make a sound in the forest when it's falling? No it doesn't. What's the point? All of the other trees know it's falling, even a pine knows there's no need for ... redumbduncesee? Maybe they're all just tree stumped.

I'm afraid she's correct. The forum lost her, way back during the Mueller School dome collapse discussion ... which was a bust as well.

Time after time I've called on decency within this forum. Time after time to no avail. Time after time I've tried to recruit friends from Europe. Time after time proof was given them of a need to proceed with caution because of American behaviour. Initially, the plan was for all to attend Honor Con 2014, where several of them could also meet my niece for professional discussions afterwards, and our family's powow begins on Nov. 2, where my friends also demand to attend. It's going to be a weeks vacation for them. I am picking up the entire tab - that was the plan. Honor Con is being hosted in the same town pretty much where my niece lives. I have been throwing that hint out forever. I had been willing to roll out the red carpet. No one got it. Too busy forming silly little cliques and acting like sophomores. Actually, I know high school freshmen capable of more. Much more.

If you aren't capable of good, decent conversation within a forum, then what motivation do you think one has to meet and discuss anything with you in person at a social event? And with such wanton lack of manners.

Regarding that "well laid out" post. Discussion has been raving amongst my friends. Good laughter. Serious discussion. My brother, who works with the phone company lent us a little of his "voodoo" and we managed to deploy three different conversations, each an 11-way. Totally insane, totally fun. Raged on for hours. On separate days, into the night, EST. All about that post. Which made me miss this post from lack of sleep and impending professional duties.

FYI, I have been relieved of my disappointment towards Henke. Sabila (Romanian) emailed the appropriate passage (for consideration) to "us" that we missed. That did me good. Everyone drew a sigh of relief after considering that particular passage. No one more so than I. I like Henke. I didn't want her to disappoint me. I didn't want her to go out and disappoint Honor - who believed in her, (although Henke didn't believe in herself.) So I brought my concerns to the forum, in hopes, thinking, that there could be calm found in Gilead, with the help of decent forumites. Not a single person supplied the appropriate passage to support Henke, the passage definitively pointing out not only its accidental nature, but the fact that survival was at hand. Has not a single one of you ever been to a formal book discussion? Why is there so much disrespectful American arrogance?

Given how well this snafu or Cthia's conundrum is laid out ...

Yes, Cthia "took time" to lay it out. Cthia thought the effort would be appreciated. Silly Cthia.

I've seen posters disrespected because they didn't take more time to proofread their post. Well, so much for that misnomer of an excuse.

And yes, it was a conundrum of Cthia's. I blame Cthia for thinking he could bring the problem to kids and get decent help. Silly ... silly Cthia, only tricks are for kids.

No, it isn't time to move on. The cart is still moving in my social circles. (If it is time to move on within this thread, so be it.) Good conversation can't be found amongst treebark, but the conversation is still raging in my neck of the woods ...

"Brilliant (Cthia)" (substitute my real name.) "Kobayashi Maru? What a light to shed on that. Genius. Can we talk tonite. Andreea says she has an option to add to Henke's decision. Laters! -Natalja

"Kobayashi Maru. Bone me a bagel, I'll pull up a seat. Michaela says hello." -Dvitova

"Good one Uncle. My friends are acting like its a party. Everyone wants in on this. What do I say to them all? You're going to have to discuss this with your sister. I am not going to miss this! So ring her immediately!! Do it now!!! Uncle #### said he can initiate those insane phone parties again! -Tieney

These are a few of the email responses I got after posting.

As it stands there are 33 confirmed people that will visit during Honor Con. Since the date had already been set. We will continue our petty and petulant discussions amongst ourselves. I have no doubt which I want to attend. And since they want no part of the attitudes and lack of common decency of "some" in the forums, I will no longer seek them to join. I'm embarrassed that I ever tried. And I certainly will not force a formal meeting on them - of the horrors of stale, stagnant and indecent conversation completely devoid of morals, scruples, values and substance. We wouldn't want to sink our teeth into good conversation only to be told "it's time to move on."

I would never go in a thread and suggest such. Even if I don't like building ships that the author says won't fly. I respect anyone's need to build them anyways. Let's call it ... hmm ... morals, ethics, and common decency, sound good.

Although it's well laid out and ripe with talk of morals, ethics and values, some didn't learn a damn thing. You just can't teach it.


At my gathering there will be gifts - available leather bound editions of all books given to everyone, signed by all of us. Scholarships and many other prizes. And the most priceless, a generous serving of decency and good conversation.

Henke's lack of morals are no longer questioned. I apologize to Henke. Thanks to my friends. However, Henke's fairing on her Kobayashi Maru is turning out to be some of the best conversation I've had. Isn't it ironic this kind of discussion can't be found inside the Honorverse forum?!

Operator, would you help me make this call?

E.T. phoning home. STOP. STI is a bust. STOP. Prognosis: NONE FOUND. STOP.